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Foreign Cartoonists Weigh In on Quran-burning Pastor

Protests in Afghanistan against the burning of a Quran in Florida by Pastor Terry Jones has entered a third straight day. The Taliban seem to be stoking the fires of the angry mobs, who have already killed 20 people and injured nearly 100 more.

It’s always interesting to see how the world’s cartoonists react to an event like this – a single, idiotic American motivated by religious intolerance stirring up trouble and creating violence halfway across the world out of bigotry and hatred.

Slovakian cartoonist Martin Sutovec drew Pastor Jones trying to use the flames of liberty to get his Quran-burning started…

While Signapore cartoonist Deng Meil Coy shows us the face of terrorism.

Israeli cartoonist Shlomo Cohen shows Jones responding to warnings about creating violence in a Dirty Harry moment…

While Jordanian cartoonist Emad Hajjaj suggests it’s the media that are the true fire-starters.

Bulgarian cartoonist Christo Komarnitski draws a comparison between Jones’ Quran-burning and the terrorists behind 9/11.

Meanwhile, I just think he’s kind-of an ass…

RELATED: More cartoons about Quran-burning Pastor Terry Jones

By Daryl Cagle

Daryl Cagle is the founder and owner of Cagle Cartoons, Inc. He is one of the most widely published editorial cartoonists and is also the editor of The Cagle Post.

364 replies on “Foreign Cartoonists Weigh In on Quran-burning Pastor”

I think the ones who are murdering are the asses, it would be insane to call the person burning the book the ass, all they did was burn a book, the others committed murder to total strangers.

He’s an ass. But the media is to blame for giving him all the attention. The ONLY reason I’ve heard about this jerk and his phony religion is thru the media, because they like to stir it up, not because this phony has anything of interest to say.
How about we bring him up on murder charges since people have died during the protests.

He is exercising his Constitution Right to freedom of speech. Those who call him an “ass” best go live in Russia or an Islamic Country. Supression of Free Speech has no place in out society. The asses are Cagle and Company.

Mr. Cagle, when your fellow cartoonists do renditions of Mohammed, the Islamists rebell and kill. If this Pastor is an ass, then all of your fellow cartoonists who render such characterizations of Mohammed are also asses, for their acts also stir-up hatred and murder amonst these animals.

Personally, come next 9-11, I am going to organize a Koran Buring on my block. And, if it causes the Islamists to riot, my prayer is that they will kill as many of each other as humanly possible.

As for the burning of pagan and seditious books, it is recorded in the Book of Acts that the Apostles presided over a Book Burning. Acts 19:19 states: “And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.”

So, anyone who casts a criticism at a Christian for burning evil books like the Koran is casting criticism at the Apostle and Luke the Evangelist. Such people must face Jesus, who is called The Christ, on the Last Day and explain why they condemned an action which is extolled in the New Testament, namely, the buring of pagan and magic books.

Those supporting the phony minister who craves only attention and will stimulate death of innocent people to get it, are themselves as guilty as the “man of god.” I do wish a just God existed so that ministers murding by proxy would burn in the hell we hear the goddist rave about. Disgusting! Wade

Religious intolerance? Which religion is intolerant? Islam, which, we are told, incites and condones the murder of those who don’t believe? Or Christianity, which teaches “Love thy neighbor”?

How many non-Christians have been murdered by Christians because somebody burned a Bible?

I didn’t see any cartoons lampooning the Taliban stirring up intolerance; I only see those about a nut case who forgot the teachings of his own religion.

Shame on them all.

Burning books, any books, is NOT exhibiting “freedom of speech”, but the exact opposite. As Islam worships the same God of Abraham as phony “christians”- and honors Moses, Jesus, and other prophets, I doubt a Muslim would burn a bible either, as they would honor that too as a “religious text” of import to them. Look to the Crusades and other killing over the centuries in the name of “Christianity”, like the Inquisition, then get back to me on just who kills as “religious fanatics”.

Interesting cartoon in the collection of “Quran-burning Pastor Terry Jones,” last one, by Stephff’s. I wonder if Jones can be prosecuted for endangering American lives overseas, not to mention United Nations personnel?

Interesting cartoon in the collection of “Quran-burning Pastor Terry Jones,” last one, by Stephff’s. I wonder if Jones can be prosecuted for endangering American lives overseas, not to mention United Nations personnel?

It is routinely reported that Islamists burn churches in the Islamic Countries.

When they burn a church, they burn everything in it, including the Bibles.

Sorry, but the facts of history and numerous news accounts show that you are dead wrong.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the buring of books and even the flag is an expression of Free Speech. Sorry, but the Supreme Court has ruled against you and the burning of books will remain an expression of free speech.

At the Danish Press Freedon Society’s online media sappho.dk you can see a cartoonist Niels Thomsen, that says it all. Also, read neuroscientist and secular activist Sam Harris’ comment on this issue on his blog and get wise, fellows! Pastor Jones is right in asking for our governments to hold those killing people accountable for their repetetive Islamic violent behaviour. I rather hear these wise words from liberal, secular fellows, and not just from a Pastor. But, when Mr Cagle wish not state this fact, he gives credit to the Pastor in fact. The Pastor shows initiative, in his awkward and unpleasant way of book burning, to show his and his small congregations’ civil disobedience and civil resistence to Islamic Imperialism, by this ugly, but non-violent happening. Mr Cagle and company acquit Islamic Imperialist thugs and accuses the Pastor instead. This is Islamic Sharia law creeping in under Mr Cagle’s skin, sorry, I am a fan of Mr Cagle’s website. However, as a victim of Islamic Imperialism and a surviving witness to Isalmic atrocities, burning of thousands of secular, humanistic books and genocide of seculars, it is a shame that Mr Calge focuses his anger at the Pastor.

For those of you commenting on Constitutional Free Speech, there is a caveat to that by the SCOTUS that concerns yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater being an abuse of free speech. Perhaps this is within that doctrine.

In the US we believe in Free Speech. It is a Constitutional Right. Perhaps you need to read its first ten admendments again. They are called The Bill of Rights. And, the Supreme Court ruled that the burning of books, and even of the American Flag, is protected Free Speech. Russia would love to have you as a citizen, in case you are inclined to relocate to a country which does not allow Freedom of Speech.

Sorry, but the Supreme Court ruled that the burning of books and even the burning of the American Flag is protected under our rights to Free Speech. You need to re-read the Bill of Rights.

And who are you to insist that only your precious “Bible,” (a collection of folk tales, handed down, word of mouth, through generations, until the time that someone was smart enough to write them down) is the only “Correct” interpretation of the, or a, Deity? If you wish to play in that cesspool, Anthony, you’re gonna get covered in…muck.

Because it has predictive power, something no other religious book has.

For instance, Jesus, who is called The Christ, is recorded as stating “…and this Gospel will be preached in all the world for a witness, and then the end will come”.

And, in the Book of Revelations, John records that “…and I saw another message with the ever-living Gospel, to proclaim that Gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and tribe”.

It is sheer lunacy for a man who knows that the authorities will soon kill him to suggest that the story about him will be proclaimed to the whole world. Yet, as we see tody, the Gospel has been heard around the world, as Jesus predicted.

It is sheer lunacy for a man who is exiled on a desert island (Patmos) to suggest that the Gospel he preaches would be proclaimed to “every nation, kindred, tongue, and tribe”. But here, 2000 years later, that is exactly what has happened.

The Bible has predictive abilities. And that is what gives it the Stamp of Divinity.

Two other comments.

Anyone notice that the Rev. Jones, in some of the cartoons, has an amazing resemblance to Joseph Stalin?

Why is it that some “Pastors” named “Jones” head the kook list? Ref. Rev. James Jones of Guyana “fame” back in the late 70’s. I was one of the soldiers that went down there and cleaned up after his “party.” I still have nightmares about what I saw. There is a word missing from Cagle’s notation and “toon,” hole!

For the record, I am not a follower of any religion, because they are all “man-made.” In no one’s “Good Book,” and especially the Bible, do I see a statement to the effect that any one religion is supreme over another. Just so that you know I am not following any ideology other than my own.

The “predictive qualities” of the Bible you mention, are also contained in other “Good Books.” Suggest that you read, sans intolerance, the Holy Koran, the Torah, and the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita. All have predictions in them, many have come true.

As for prognostication, your Bible warns about witches and sorcerers, and not to tolerate them, yet it makes its own prognostications. Hmmm? A little bit two faced there, isn’t it?

For the record, I am not a follower of any religion, because they are all “man-made.” In no one’s “Good Book,” and especially the Bible, do I see a statement to the effect that any one religion is supreme over another. Just so that you know I am not following any ideology other than my own.

The “predictive qualities” of the Bible you mention, are also contained in other “Good Books.” Suggest that you read, sans intolerance, the Holy Koran, the Torah, and the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita. All have predictions in them, many have come true.

As for prognostication, your Bible warns about witches and sorcerers, and not to tolerate them, yet it makes its own prognostications. Hmmm? A little bit two faced there, isn’t it?

“all they did was burn a book…”

It seems that that was all the Nazi’s did too, a big bonfire of them, and look where that led them because the people of Germany did not get involved. And look where that led. 6 million Jews, numerous Priests and Nuns and other clergymen and women, Gypsies, Slav’s, Poles, Russians, Homosexuals and the mentally “deficient.”

Intolerance is never right. There are no “right’ forms of literature, art, thought, they are themselves. They are either liked or disliked. Just because I think Rap music is screeching noise, does not give me any legal or moral right to ban and destroy that music genre, any more than Jones and his followers have a moral right to burn the Holy Koran in public. His actions have caused the deaths of people that had no relation with him, by other people who are just as intolerant in the opposite direction.

What’s the big deal? Your intolerance can lead to an innocent person’s death. And that is intolerable.

Please provide a prediction from any of the religious books which you noted which made a prophecy which only came to fruition 2000 years later.

But you do have the right to destroy a wrap CD which you bought and own.

So to, this Pastor had a right to buy a Koran and burn it.

He burned a Koran which he owned.

So, you likening him to the Nazis, who burned and destroyed items which they did not own, is wanting (to say the least).

“The Pastor shows initiative, in his awkward and unpleasant way of book burning, to show his and his small congregations’ civil disobedience and civil resistence to Islamic Imperialism, by this ugly, but non-violent happening.”
Doesn’t seem like he shows any Christian spirit, though. And given who has burned books in the past (Nazis) and maybe even the Christian tradition of burning witches, the symbollism is abhorent.

Interesting how “freedom of speech” is used. When WikiLeaks tries to exercise it, their Australian leader is accused of treason. When people tried to protest the invasion of Iraq, ditto. When some supposed Christian exhibits his narrow-minded prejudices, that’s “freedom.”
And anyway, Anthony: your view of Russia might be behind the times. Only journalists who try to investigate gov’t wrongdoings seem to get into trouble there these days. You might consider China as a better destination.

Anthony: there are limits. Shouting “fire” in a crowded theatre with the intent to cause panic is not protected. Inciting violence is not protected. Conspiracy to commit a crime is not protected. In this case what was the Pastor’s purpose? gaining attention for himself? inciting hatred? trying to start up a pogrom?

“It is routinely reported that Islamists burn churches in the Islamic Countries.”
What? daily? monthly?
Some folk on here insist there are no churches in Islamic countries.
Show us some facts, Anthony, before you claim someone else is “dead wrong.”

“Personally, come next 9-11, I am going to organize a Koran Buring on my block.” And then you’ll probalby wonder why there’s another 9-11.
“And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all.” Good. Magic texts, and wasn’t magic against Mosaic law anyway? Whereas burning a religious text devoted to the worship of God (by another name) is… also OK?
Supposedly those same apostles believed in some quaint idea about “he who is without sin” throwing the first stone, loving their neighbours, that peacemakers are blessed, etc.
Then again, maybe the apostles never imagined that such idiots as the Pastor Jones would ever take their Lord’s name in vain.

“Because it has predictive power, something no other religious book has.” No?
“The Bible has predictive abilities. And that is what gives it the Stamp of Divinity.” And yet, the “world” at the time was basically only the Roman empire; and the people who wrote down the Gospels believed that the world would end in their lifetime.

Which prophecy “only came to fruition 2000 years later”? Missionaries had taken the Bible to all corners of the earth a few centuries ago.

Heinrich Heine’s prophecy: “Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also.”

“So, you likening him to the Nazis, who burned and destroyed items which they did not own, is wanting (to say the least).” They just burned books which belonged, generally, either to their public or university libraries, bookstores and private collections.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone argue about who owned the books before.

I think his moustache makes him look a little like Nietzsche, strangely enough.
And “Terry Jones” was a member of Monty Python, too.

But Russia is a good place now: George W Bush claimed he saw into Putin’s soul, and we know we can all trust George W Bush.

Whereas Pastor Jones is showing the true spirit of Christianity: love thy neighbour and all that.

none of it matters,all religions are hateful in one way or another. damming people to hell for whatever doesnt sound like any merciful loving anything .all through history its been one intolerant group trying to impose its will upon another intolerant group, all believing that God is on their side when none of them can even prove there is a God. Faith is not a fact. Believe what you want but you dont have to make,or want anyone else to do what you do, a lot of us dont care,and we simply laugh and think you all are crazy,and if you take the time to do the research (will durants age of faith is a good source) you will find that christians have killed more christians than all the romans, barbarians and muslims combined.

I gave you the sources, and said to read them, “sans intolerance” (meaning “without” intolerance, or an open mind.) I suggest you read them for yourself, because what ever I may say as “proof” to you, I fear will not be accepted. Read them for yourself, and make your own mind up, instead of relying on others to do so for you.

But I do not do so in front of a Rap concert while shouting about the evils contained therein.

I concur that books are to be kept on library shelves for reseach and study, even the Islamic Quran, so much full of hate, violence, misogyni and killing orders against non-believers. Paper-recycling could be a more acceptable option, too, but no book deserves to be burnt. The focus, however, shall be turned towards repetitive Islamic killings and death-fatwa orders based on Quran and Islamic sharia-law and the founder, the paedophilic, misogynic warlord, Mohammad’s violent tradition, Sunna. Let us, liberals and seculars, take the initiative away from pastors and ayatollahs, mufties and taliban, and go head to head with Islam with open debate without censorship, judicial criminal action, civil courage and military bravery whenever necessary, like at present in Afghanistan. I am a surviving witness to Islamic mass book burning of secular, humanistic books, by Islamic state militia and thugs, in front of Tehran University in 1980’ies, and the image of smoke rising from charred books burnt by Islamic hatred has burnt it on my liberal retina. Where is the outrage at those Islamic book burnings and subsequent genocide on seculars in the Islamic Iran? Like the Danish Mohammed newspaper cartoons, any civilised, but open and direct liberal action against Islamic and Islamophiliac censorship and violence is welcome!

Thank you for reminding all that secular, liberal democracy should take the initiative in the combat agianst Islamic Imperialism at civil, judicial and military levels, and not allow pastors take charge of the leadership of civil disobedience and resistence towards Islamic religious, political and military crimes against humanity. We, who debate freely here at Mr Cagle’s blog would all be “heretics” to burnt at stake or stoned to death by either the Spanish Inquisition or Islamic Sharia Courts, should Vatican or Islam succeed in their paedophilic, misogynic, supressed or overt violations of human dignity.

I agree with the fact that Terry Jones is an idiot and burning the Quran does absolutely nothing, but where’s the outcry when there’s hatred and bigotry towards Christians? In this country and every where else! It’s no where to be found. Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Christians are persecuted in many countries including the United States. In some places being a Christian means being put to death. We complain about religious intolerance when it is any other faith, but Christianity. Why is that? Possibly the most religiously intolerant people in the whole world are Muslims in the Middle East. Don’t condemn one man’s stupid act when the people he’s trying to agitate are worse than he is.

“The Islamic Quran, so much full of hate, violence, misogyni and killing orders against non-believers.” I take it you haven’t read the Old Testament?
“I am a surviving witness to Islamic mass book burning of secular, humanistic books, by Islamic state militia and thugs, in front of Tehran University in 1980’ies, and the image of smoke rising from charred books burnt by Islamic hatred has burnt it on my liberal retina.” My wife grew up in the repressively Catholic Ireland of the 1950s, a time when abortions were illegal and orphans and unwed mothers were regularly “enslaved” either in orphanages or laundries, often because village priests couldn’t control their animal natures. So let’s fight the child-molesting Catholics. Is open and direct liberal action against Catholic and Catholicophiliac censorship and violence welcome?
“Where is the outrage at those Islamic book burnings and subsequent genocide on seculars in the Islamic Iran?” You probably weren’t paying attention, but most human rights groups (Amnesty International, etc.) have been working on the issue. One problem might be that many of those groups also opposed the Shah’s rule, too. Here in Germany most of the Iranians I met came over before the Revolution: they fled from the Shah, and have no desire to go back to the present regime, either.
“Like the Danish Mohammed newspaper cartoons.” Are they “civilized”? Or a deliberate provocation? Kind of like some art works about Jesus and/or Mary that get picketed in galleries or theatres. Remember the controversy over “The Last Temptation of Christ,” or “Life of Brian”?

“This is Islamic Sharia law creeping in under Mr Cagle’s skin.” I think this is a mixture of Christian concepts of tolerance and not judging others, and the ideals of liberal democracy: freedom of religion, freedom of belief, equality and justice for all, separation of church and state (which is somewhat contrary to the idea of “civil disobedience” coming from a “pastor”).

You have a very short memory, my friend. When not being Christian doesn’t preclude someone from participating in American politics, when Fundamentalists of your own religion aren’t trying to move the Bible from Church shelves into schools there is little room to criticise the Muslims.

Remember – where they are now, your own faith was about sixty years ago.

I had never heard of Terry Jones until this thing started. I can’t say what was in his heart when he burned that Quran. Whether he did it as a matter of conscience or just as a publicity stunt. What I can say is that it takes a real hypocritical bastard of a cartoonist to complain about what Jones did and ,yet, not do the same when one of your ilk draws Mohammed as a bomb, which caused just as many demonstrations and deaths. I remember how you all, without exception, jumped in to excuse his action as freedom of the press. What about freedom of religion and freedom of speech. You should all be ashamed.

No, there are still tribes and “tongues” which are still in the process of being reached by Missionaries.

Even if we take your statement as 100% accurate, the fulfillment still occurs, by your reconning, about 1700 years after the prophecies were made.

So, we definitely see that the prophecies by Jesus, who is called The Christ, and John started to come true during their stays on earth and are now, or only “a few centuries”, reached their fulfillment.

So, the fulfillment of the prophecies occurred long after John was dead and Jesus was ascended. Neither, in an earthly sense, was able to continually influence the outcome.

And this is why I wrote that the Bible has predictive power, and that such is what makes it stand out from all other religious books.

Sorry, but people knew of China and India at that time. Alexander the Great had gotten as far as Afghanastan (where he, too, was repelled). They also knew of Northern and sub-Sahara Africa.

They knew the world was a lot larger than the Roman Empire. The Greek Philosophers had even computed the circumference of the earth long before Jesus was born.

So, your statement that the “world at that time was basically only the Roman empire” is demonstratably false and incorrect.

I have read the Koran, which your termed “holy”.

A whole Sura is devoted to the proposition that wives who are disobedient to their husbands should be scourged.

It is not a “holy” book. We all should be concerned that Obama, in Cairo, called this cursed book “holy” three times.

Any book which instructs its followers to scourge their wives is not “holy”. It is Sanatanic. What is written therein are “Satanic Verses”.

Certainly, a book which instructs men to scourge their wives when their wives become disobedient is not a “text devoted to the worship of God…” It is a text which is devoted to the subjugation of woman.

It stands in stark contrast to the Torah alllowing women to own property and Paul’s statement that in the eyes of Jesus, who is also called The Christ, that there is no difference between woman and men in Gods / YHWH’s eyes.

On the other hand, burning such a book as the Koran, which states that disobedient wives are to be scourged, is not an evil thing to do.

In fact, every Christian should applaude the buring of such a book.

Certainly, a book which instructs men to scourge their wives when their wives become disobedient is not a “text devoted to the worship of God…” It is a text which is devoted to the subjugation of woman.

It stands in stark contrast to the Torah alllowing women to own property and Paul’s statement that in the eyes of Jesus, who is also called The Christ, that there is no difference between woman and men in Gods / YHWH’s eyes.

On the other hand, burning such a book as the Koran, which states that disobedient wives are to be scourged, is not an evil thing to do.

In fact, every Christian should applaude the buring of such a book.

Yet, it was the Roman Empire, and not the early Christian Church, which burned people. The first Christian Maryters were about 50 Christians whom Nero had arrested. They were burned in the evening so that Nero could have light at one of his “stately” dinners.

Your history acumen is second to none. But I don’t think you read my blog through to the end. Although the abominations by Christians that you cited are correct they occured in other than recent times (the focus of my post) and certainly weren’t reactions to a Bible-burning. They were actions by religious zealots who didn’t follow the teachings of Christ.

My blog is critical of all religious zealots, Christian and Muslim, and of cartoonists whose drawings (at least the ones presented by Mr. Cagle) don’t equally condemn all the atrocities. In his defense, though, he is presenting only one side at this posting. Perhaps he will present the cartoons lambasting those Muslims responsible for inciting the jihad-style violence in the near future.

On another point, you may know something about Hitler that I don’t, but from all that I’ve heard and read, I conclude that he was not a Christian or a follower of any other religion. So his practice of extermination wasn’t because of religious zealousness. I do know that he was fascinated by the occult. Could that have been his impetus?

Best regards.

Gslater, you say, “In no one’s “Good Book,” and especially the Bible, do I see a statement to the effect that any one religion is supreme over another. Just so that you know I am not following any ideology other than my own.”

Your theology mut be one of ignorance.

I don’t know about other’s “Holy Books”, but here’s what mine says:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
New Living Translation (©2007)

John 10:9 John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

“I conclude that he was not a Christian or a follower of any other religion. So his practice of extermination wasn’t because of religious zealousness.” It was age-old religious hatred wrapped up in a veneer of “scientific” racism. There is no such thing as a “Jewish race.”
“I do know that he was fascinated by the occult.” You’re probably confusing him with Himmler.

But you wrote “routinely.” I think that attack made news largely because it was such a rare event in Egypt (and some journalists wanted to score some points).

How about telling people not to eat shellfish? And listing which people can be stoned to death? Or which celebrates the extermination of whole towns or the whole human race (except for one particular family)?
How long before you go back to condemning Jews for murdering Jesus?

@ Docpedram: The Danish Freedom Society is a freedom society by name only. It is mainly made up from members of various right wing groups, who have alle got one thing in common: They are using ‘freedom of speech’ to cover up for their xenophobism, and I really do hope, that you will be kind enough to see Denmark and Danes as more nuanced than that. Noone in Denmark outside these groups thinks that pastor Jones is anything but a nutcase. We’ll defend his right to be so, surely – if he wants to be an ignorant, hurtfull prick then let him – but really, he’s just in it for the attention and should be ignored.
Kind regards,
Sune, Denmark

But just how absolute is that freedom of speech? Since Pastor Jones chose to indulge in political theater, regardless of the consequences, Obama could have countered with the tactic of seeking a restraining order against the Quran-burning. Probably the courts would have shot it down, but it might have helped our State Dept. show that American govt did something to protect freedom of religion. It’s a messy issue: does freedom of speech trump freedom of religion?

Please open up a Koran and read a few pages. It glorifies Jesus, Mary, Moses and Abraham and other Judaeo-Christian prophets. And if some parts are misinterpreted to support slaughter of infidels, other parts clearly support tolerance of Jews and Christians.

Geoff you just will not get it. Pastor Jones burned a book. He did it to show how the islamic community would react. Regardless if he burned the book or not, they would find something else to riot about. Maybe a christian walked down thier street and it pissed them off. Give me a break. Islamic people are overly dramatic. They are like children. They can’t think for themselves. Proof in point with the riots. I didn’t see American’s rioting in the street when those in the middle east burned our flags or when Muslim people removed christian artifacts or symbolism from thier halls in Turkey or other middle eastern areas as a supression of other religions. There comes a time when you have to stand up and say enough. Does it bother you that the Pastor burned the book or is it that the Pastor is Christian?

Among other things, I was vaguely thinking that this is a pretty lame “prophecy,” almost reminiscent of the “boring prophet” in “Life of Brian”: “there shall be rumours of things going astray, and a friend shall lose his friend’s hammer,” etc. Why coulnt’t they have been more specific, less open to possible misinterpretation? Some prophecy about someday encountering kangaroos, for example, or discovering Antarctica?

“He did it to show how the islamic community would react.” Not to get attention for himself? Kind of reminds me of those “Baptists” who go around protesting funerals with their signs “God hates Fags.”
“Islamic people are overly dramatic. They are like children. They can’t think for themselves.” That’s… a pretty broad statement. You actually describe my opinion of Rush’s “dittoheads.” Then again, if that were true, why do westerners use such Arabic words as “algebra,” “alchemy,” and Arabic names to a whole lot of stars (“Aldeberan,” for example)?
“I didn’t see American’s rioting in the street when those in the middle east burned our flags or when Muslim people removed christian artifacts or symbolism from thier halls in Turkey or other middle eastern areas as a supression of other religions.” No, Americans riot for other reasons.
And besides: the US can just send cruise missiles or drones; rioting is an expression of powerlessnes.
It bothers me that a Pastor – supposedly a Christian – burned the book, knowing the symbolism involved (burning words if you can’t burn the people who wrote those words, thinking to destroy ideas you can’t defeat by any rational means) and the likely consequences. Is he not deliberately calling out for religious war? A pogrom? A new Holocaust?
The hypocrisy of a supposed Christian showing so much hatred for others also floors me. Sorry: crimes by religious fanatics done in God’s name seem to contravene that prohibition against taking the Lord’s name in vain.

No, Heinrich Heine was referring to anti-Jewish pogroms, and was seen as being “prophetic” regarding the Holocaust.
The church burned a lot of heretics and witches.
The Romans did a lot of stuff to a lot of people: Jews, Germans, Picts.
Interesting comment on one of the pages I just googled about sources for stories about early martyrdoms:
“How did the Christians deal with this persecution? Did they band together to form an army so that they could fight against the Romans? Did they turn away from the Christian faith because it cost too much to be a believer? No, the early Christians met cruelty with courage and they met hatred with heroism and they met fierceness with faith.”
So what are you saying? Turning the other cheek has gone out of style?

Thank you for mentioning what the Irish report 2-3 years ago names “the Irish Holocaust”, after examining and publishing Vatican Irish branch of the catholic establishment’s atrocities and crimes against the Irish children, generation after generation. I cocur: Vatican and Islamic Imperialism are the two most profilic paedophilic and violent oppressive religious powers attacking our liberal democracies, on our territory and abroad, spreading disease, poverty, wars and breaking our liberal democracies’ progression and humanistic evolution. You are right in your analysis of Amnesty International and other Islamophiliacs, but why are you not going ahead condemn their sympathizing with Islamic Imperialists and their agents here among a so-called left that is collaborating with the most reactionary right, i.e. Islamic sharia-law jihadists? Why giving them excuses like they did not like the Shah either. Please do condemn Islamophilia open and direct, and be my guest compare it with Vaticanophilia. Both are dangerous to human bodily and mental health and dignity. Both are violating and terrorizing children, women and good men physically and mentally from cralde to Islamic beheadings…As for Monty Python and the Danish newspaper cartoonists, yes, I find them civilised and their satire most necessary in the free debate and also to open the eyes of temporarily blind people, who are submissive to religions and gods.

“People,” yes. Mostly Greek geographers, I would think. Hard to know what some fishermen from the Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) or even the scribes who wrote down the Gospels (and who apparently weren’t eyewitnesses to the events narrated; after all, they got a few details wrong regarding the date of Jesus’ birth) might have known about history and geography. So… beyond the borders inhabited by “barbarians” wanting to get in, there were only regions described by Heroditus or visited by a few traders. And how much of that would have filtered down to some fishermen on a small lake in Galilee?

These Islamic beheadings and Islamic censorship on happenings, cartoons, novels, dramatic work, visual arts etc. has to be stopped and opposed by direct and persistent action from seculars, liberals, civilians, lawyers, and our brave military! Enough with accepting it as routine the repetitive Islamic violence in response to legal happenings and expressions of opinion in our liberal democracies. Enough with our state leaders using a reverse “three strike law”, i.e. the more Islamists kill, rape and behead people, the more freedom they are granted by our leaders to repeat it. Enough with this creeping sharia law under our leaders skin, i.e. accusing the pastor in Florida for killings and beheadings by Islamic Quran loving jihadists in Afghanistan – where is your sense of justice and secular, liberal, humanist law? Sharia law does this number all over, accusing the raped girl of adultery and stoning her to death while letting off the rapists.

Hitler was wrapped up in his own maniacal passion for Aryan supremacy and viewed Jews and non-white races as sub-human. I have no evidence that he had a specific hatred for Judaism so I can’t agree that he was religiously motivated. I do agree that a Jewish race doesn’t exist; it’s a religion.

Heinrich Himmler was also deeply curious about the occult. There is no confusion.

I have been a member of Danish Press Freedom Society since 2006 and I am a secular, liberal atheist, and not right wing, as you are suggesting it. Looking at the exile-Iranian Communists in Britain, US and Canada, working with liberals in the movement One Law for All, http://www.onelawforall.org.uk, you find many of the same direct and un-censored criticism of Islamic Imperialism and Islamic sharia, yes Islam per se, that you would find among many of us Danish secular, liberal activists. This wing desorientation is rampant in Denmark and beyond, perceiving Islamophiliac collaborators as leftist, while the critics of Islam are labled “right wing”. Islam is one of the most rightwing fascist and inhumane movements and state powers in all history of human, and now at its worst in 21. Century. So, please, I am a Dane with Iranian past and a secular, liberal, whatever you might lable me as, Sir. Do not let the totalitarians in like some did on 9 April 1940! Enough with the so-called “Collaboration Policy” of the 1940, and let us fend off Islam as the Allied forces, 2500 Danish sailors and those few but brave Danish resistence people, liberal, conservative or communist, did the equally totalitarian Nazism. And remember that the Islamic state of Iran has a permanent and open Holocaust denial and military collaboration with neo-Nazies represented by people like the German National Socialist party and Ku-Klux-Klan formere grand wizard David Duke of New Orleans. So, who’s the right wing, how’s the left, and who center, who liberal, who reactionary? Please take care and re-orient yourself based on the vast evidence, not based on false propaganda and worn out leftist traditions.

In the US, burning a book is legal. Maybe untasteful to some, but legal. If somebody burns the Bible, would you go out and kill somebody? No, of course not. That shows the difference between our cultures. If the rioters would burned the pastor in effigy, or burned the Bible inretaliation, that would have been an even score.

Thank you for the clear, simple, legal and logical insight. Let us teach this kind of logic to our heads of state and some of my fellow liberals, who seem to drift in sharia-reverse all the time.

Thank you for the clear, simple, legal and logical insight. Let us teach this kind of logic to our heads of state and some of my fellow liberals, who seem to drift in sharia-reverse all the time.

It’s not a matter of whether he has the freedom to burn a book. It’s not a matter of how we would react if someone burned a Bible. Those things are totally irrelevant.

A Christian is to love all of the people of the world. Unfortunately, just as Islam is portrayed in the media by it’s right wing crazies, “christians?” (right wing crazies) tend to be the ones that get the headlines. Jones needs to spend more time reading what is own book says. I doubt if he can find where either Jesus or Paul said to attack another religion. Certainly Paul didn’t attack the religion of Athens. Instead he looked at what the people of Athens already believed and used that belief to promote his religious ideas. This was a basic use of Aristotle’s teaching of persuasion. How many Muslims did Jones reach with his actions of hate, compared the the people of Athens Paul reached with his actions of love?

Acts 17:22-23

This is the USA. Remember, freedom of speech? Maybe the terrorist need to learn about that.

Its easy to see you have your god shoved so far up your ass you cant see straight.Love thy neighbor right?

Terry is a bloody idiot.
That said, that does not make him responsible for childish egomaniacs committing murders because they don’t like what Terry did.

Geoff, most witches were hanged, not burned. Those kids with makeup saying they’re the reincarnations of witches burned at Salem? They’re lying to you.

Seriously, read a book. Charlemagne went to Verden only after the Pagans made it clear that they were in rebellion.

Slater, I don’t give a damn that he burned a book. That’s his right. When Mr. Jones tries to kill someone, we can arrest him. Until then, he’s got free speech. Don’t like it? Go to China. I’m sure they’ll find a use for your fascist ass.

Interesting. However, burning books is not a crime. Burning people is. If you can’t see this, please do not breed.

Good Life, Jones proved his point. The prevailing culture of the Muslim world is childish and violent.

So, basically, you admit Americans are, on the whole, culturally superior because we DON’T overreact to symbolic gestures?
Good to know.

The good news is that the security costs incurred by DOVE from their antics has bankrupted them. They are dissolving.

“The most common death sentence was to be burnt at the stake. In only a few cases were the alleged witches still alive while the stake was set on fire. The garrote was sometimes used in England to execute religious heretics before they were burned at the stake. In England it was common to hang the person first and then burn the corpse, a practice adopted sometimes in other countries (in many cases the hanging was replaced by strangling). Drowning was sometimes used as a means of execution. England was also the only country in which the accused had the right to appeal the sentence.”
You could also check the Malleus Malificarum. Someone here in Germany published a good CD-RoM collection of most of the important documents, but that’s all in Latin or old German.

The fact that I am yet to see a cartoon on the real issue, that is the murderous intolerant muslim lunatic fringe, is evidence that all these so-called cartoonist have sold out. Used to be that the cartoonist would tread where others fear to go. Used to be that cartoonists drew what people were REALLY THINKING.

Even if that is the case, we are free to openly criticize and demonstrate against these so-called ‘Christians’. the ISSUE is that you can’t do that to the Muslims, that’s why u don’t see any cartoons lampooning Islam.

Why are u guys missing the point, deliberately or ignorantly? The point is that MUSLIMS committed MURDER of innocent people. Where is your outrage to that? I can’t believe u people. Jones burnt HIS OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY, how is that a crime? Sheesh!

What an idiotic comment! It was the MUSLIMS the MURDERED innocent people! They should be prosecuted. Have you all gone mad? Or maybe you’re too scared to speak the truth lest you get firebombed too.
Jones burnt his own private property. How is he going to be prosecuted for that? You want to change the constitution, remember it covers your rights too, and men died to give u those rights.

Right on, Ads, thank you for reminding editorial cartoonists their duty and that the nightmarish Islam has not yet taken over USA, Europian liberal democracies, and we have still the liberty to insult Islam. We need the bravery of Shakespeare, who insulted Kings and Queens, dead or alive, even though he and his company of writers and actors lived under heavy judgement and could be beheaded, too. Why are our people in 21. Century USA, Europe etc. censoring themselves and apologising to bloody fools and their serial decapitator masters in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan etc.? Just feel free as you are free, and enjoy it as long as you have freedom of expression and use it or lose it! As Vaslav Havel is quoted for: live as if not repressed!

It’s not hatred to expose murderous killers. You fail to see who the real criminals are, not Jones, but the lunatics who murdered innocent civilians, who use terror to keep us from expressing our freedom of speech, and freedom to burn our own private property. It is people like you who give those murderers their power, because they see that their terror tactics have taken away your freedom to travel, your freedom of privacy, and now freedom of speech

As you yourself admit, they were almost never burned alive. The dead bodies were burned. Major difference.

Why don’t you read the part where people wanted to kill Paul for his preaching? If Paul listened to people like u, he would have shut his mouth, but he kept on preaching. I am amazed how many of u so-called ‘Christians’ try to use the bible to justify your protection of MURDEROUS FANATICS, and try to make Jones the guilty one here. Didn’t read where Jesus called the religious fanantics of his day serpents and vipers? He called them hypocrites and empty tombs. He wnet into their temple and overturned their gambling tables. Try doing that in a mosque. The would kill every Christian in a hundred mile radius. The muslims need to hear that their actions are UNACCEPTABLE and UNGODLY. That’s the Christian thing to do.

Even in “western” law, so far as I know rape is the only law where the victim has to prove her innocence first.
“These Islamic beheadings and Islamic censorship on happenings, cartoons, novels, dramatic work, visual arts etc. has to be stopped and opposed by direct and persistent action from seculars, liberals, civilians, lawyers, and our brave military!” Apart from the military (since I can’t see what help that might do), I’d agree. That’s why so many “seculars, liberals, civilians [and] lawyers” have protested against human rights violations in Iran (under the Shah and after), Palestine, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, etc.
One major obstacle in all that time has come from “conservatives” who have argued that Saddam or Mubarak or the Shah or the Saudi Royal family are “our allies” so they can get away with it. Tommy (he calls himself a “Marine” now) has even argued that it was OK for Saddam gas Kurdish civilians because they were potential “futurer terrorists.” So: even genocide is OK if it’s “our genocide.”
It is a little hard to argue for some kind of moral superiority when supporting genocide by your allies and criticising it when it’s done by your foes. A little problem of “relativism” creeps in.
Supposedly this so-called “Pastor” is a Christian, supposedly he did what he did knowing people could get killed. So: was it his aim to incite violence? That seems to be a crime in its own right, isn’t it?

“In England.” Given that no one is really sure how many were killed anyways (seems no one started to research the issue until the 1970s) and practices differed between different countries, I don’t know. Jean d’Arc was certainly burned alive, as was Savanorola, so was Giordano Bruno. So it’s not impossible.
I’m still not sure what point you’re trying to make: it was better to hang innocent women than to burn them?

“In England.” Given that no one is really sure how many were killed anyways (seems no one started to research the issue until the 1970s) and practices differed between different countries, I don’t know. Jean d’Arc was certainly burned alive, as was Savanorola, so was Giordano Bruno. So it’s not impossible.
I’m still not sure what point you’re trying to make: it was better to hang innocent women than to burn them?

“You are right in your analysis of Amnesty International and other Islamophiliacs.” Excuse me? AI routinely criticises Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, etc.
“But why are you not going ahead condemn their sympathizing with Islamic Imperialists and their agents here among a so-called left that is collaborating with the most reactionary right, i.e. Islamic sharia-law jihadists?” Because that doesn’t make sense: I’m not sure which “so-called left” you mean (the American, or the real “left” like you find in Europe?). So far as I know, “leftists” criticise[d] and protest[ed] against the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Taliban, Mubarak, current regime in Iran, etc., many of whom commit human rights abuses in the name of religion. In case you haven’t been following the discussion here, “leftists” are usually accused of hating religion, so I don’t see how they can suddenly also be accused of supporting religious fanatics.
As for “the most reactionary right,” do you mean the Saudis or people like Rush Limbaugh and the Teabaggers?

There used to actually be a law against “murdering” books, back in the days when they were not only valuable but also revered as magic talismans. Spells are often written down, and from Judaism there comes a reverence for texts, especially strong in the Talmudic traditions.
So if you only went back a few centuries, you might find that your argument was false.

You are outright wrong, as we liberals are not persistent and consistent, nor brave or outspoken enough in our fight for universal, secular, human rights and protection of children, women and good men. Many here at this debate are not doing nearly enough to condemn the killers, yet use most of their time and megabites to mock and degrade the Florida pastor, whom I see as a very poor replacement for the lack of enough liberal critics of Islam in the USA.
Regarding sharia law and US or European criminal law…Sorry? A rape victim what?! If you be right, are you then not disgusted by this injustice to those minors subject to secual assault by Islamic, Vatican or other rapists – to ask a raped child to prove his or her innocence? You are mistaking sharia law or Vatikan law on one hand with our secular, liberal secular laws on the other hand. As far as I know, our principle is that the accused rapist is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If a male, misogynic redneck judge then reverses the accusation towards the rape victim, the Supreme Court of USA or High Court elsewhere probably would not, or we have to revise our laws. As we are liberal democracies and not sharia-lands or Vatican, we actually can revise our laws to protect rape victims and punish the rapist proven guilty based on evidence set forth.

Let’s see: if you wandered around a Jewish neighbourhood wearing a Nazi uniform as a means of exercising your “right to free speech,” would you expect any sympathy if you got the shit beat out of you?
If you falsely started yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre and people got trampled to death for no reason, would you expect to face up to your “personal responsibility”?
People have rights; adults usually recognise that rights come with responsibilities.
Adults usually exercise those rights responsibly.
Here in Europe pogroms used to be started by false accusations about Jews poisoning wells, Jews causing a drought, Jews abducting children, etc. Seems like people are throwing the same accusations around, just aiming at a different target.

By the way, I cannot speak for Tommy, but I condemn genocide anywhere, and therefore I was for the invasion of Iraq and Kurds in Iraq are very lucky that they have now been given a chance of creating a federal state – whether they mess it up with their shifting between secularism and Islam/patriarch misogynic feudal legacy is an open question. However, I try to stay optimistic as many Kurds refugees went back to Iraqi Kurdistan from Sweden, Germany and elsewhere to bring about liberal, democratic ideas and fight the deep feudal nepotism and corruption in the newly emerged government there…I am not updated enough to comment further, some bad news about women’s rights violations worries one, but USA is still much present there and hopefully “muscular liberalism” could guide the progression of liberal democracy and proper humanistic equality in Kurdistan. Kurds have everything to lose to Turks, Arabs and corrupt Iranian mullahs, should they cross the line and break with USA.

Your rights only extend to the point where they don’t interfere with someone else’s rights.
Censoring? maybe acting responsibly. It isn’t acceptable any more to go around calling people by various racial epitaths, or degrading women. We have sort of learned to act responsibly, to be civilized, because we have learned some of the harm that can be done by calling people Nigger, Kike, Wop, Gook, etc. The same way we follow other rules and laws and obligations necessary for living in a society.

“He wnet into their temple and overturned their gambling tables.” Try doing that to some Televangelist. Or the Catholic Church. No more Bingo?!?
“Try doing that in a mosque.” Go ahead. Gambling is forbidden in Islam.
2The muslims need to hear that their actions are UNACCEPTABLE and UNGODLY.” And the “pastor” Terry Jones’s actions are… “ACCEPTABLE and GODLY”?

As far as I see in this debate, some are name-calling and degrading the pastor in Florida and trying rather hard, although futile, to save the ugly face of Islam. If you are not trying to censor the pastor and other critics of Islam, what are you doing, moderating, or following up on the bloody work of Ministry of Islamic Guidance of the Islamic Republic of Iran? No, you are not consciously doing it, but please accept my witness account: you are sounding like those mullahs and their large staff of censors. Look away from the pastor and turn your focus on Islamic Imperialism. Do not focus on Jewish shortcomings while Nazis are perpetrating genocide on Jews, and save your harsh criticism of Israel untill you feel the heat of the Islamic Jihad and Islamic Hamas and Hizbullah rocket fires burning around you. Alright, I said enough, please go ahead friends, keep the debate going…. : )

“The lede and general thrust of almost every column and a large proportion of the comments is that a Koran burning by an obscure pastor at a very small church in Florida triggered huge mobs, murder, and violence in Afghanistan. The general narrative is that IF Terrry Jones had not burned a Koran murder and rioting would not have happened in Afghanistan.

It is the same argument we heard after the Danish cartoons and the erroneous Time Mag story on a Koran flush at Gitmo. …

The clear implication of this narrative is that even obscure acts by unimportant people can EASILY ignite violent rioting and murder by Muslims – because as everyone knows – the “RELIGION OF PEACE” has a lot of adherents who can become very, very violent if offended. Therefore, if anyone, anywhere in the world, ever does anything that offends Muslims, WE SHOULD EXPECT rioting, burnings, violence and murder.
But this is not the fault of Muslims because they were provoked.

Does anyone but me find this to be condescension and capitulation? Condescension because of the apparent belief that Muslims are not civilized enough to NOT riot and murder at the slightest provocation . Capitulation because it attempts to make the new norm – DO NOTHING TO OFFEND MUSLIMS BECAUSE THEY WILL RIOT AND MURDER!

I see the problem as, not the Koran burning, but the Muslims who are rioting and murdering and the Imams who incite them”
Taken from washingtonpost.com, posted by pilsener

NO! The Christian thing to do is to be different than those around you. Just because others do something doesn’t make it acceptable for a Christian. Even Paul clearly taught that it would be better to give up that which is acceptable to Christians IF by doing something it would offend those around you. 1Cor 8:9-12 “Sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.”

Yes, Paul could have been killed…But he never advocated “Do unto others as they would do unto you.” That is a significant difference between the Christian “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.”

Can you imagine the outrage of the “christians?” in this country if Bibles and Crosses were abused? They might not riot and kill but they wouldn’t let it pass either. That is why they are not really “Christians”. They don’t let things pass and they certainly don’t “Love their neighbor as themselves.”

The point of a Christian….especially one that claims ministry…is to live as Christ would have lived. You can’t show me one place where Christ insulted nonbelievers or believers of other religions.

He saved his insults for the religious conservatives of his own religion that were not living what they knew were the teachings of the God that they claimed to worship. Jones is one that would receive the insults of Jesus.

It is ungodly because in doing it he hurt the conscience of weaker brothers. There are numerous teachings in the Bible that say a believer should never harm the conscience of unbelievers or weak believers. He acted as the ministers that Jesus called a den of vipers rather than a person that thinks “God Is Love”.

Obviously I was being ridiculous to show how ridiculous your argument is. What you should have said was, “if you wandered around a Jewish neighbourhood wearing a Nazi uniform as a means of exercising your “right to free speech,” and a bunch of Jews killed dozens of innocent people way over in Israel, would you expect any sympathy?”
See? now we are comparing apples with apples…

Paul was not afraid of death as to him it was moving to a better place. A threat of death (which he received many times) never would have shut his teachings.

As far as serpents and vipers

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them. “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit that benefits repentance and do not presume to say to yourselves, “We have Abraham as our father”; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Mat 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Mat 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, “If we had lived in the days of out fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.” Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

And so the “christians?” like jones crucify the very words of God with their preaching and their actions. They claim the mantel of Abraham, but have no concern for the God of Abraham. They only claim the God of Abraham with words not actions. And not in their heart.

Geoff, it’s not Jones’ fault that some stunted little children in the Middle East think killing people is a good response to an insult.

Interesting theory, Good Life, but you have to admit, Jones wins this round.
He argued that Muslim cultures were irrationally violent.
Can’t say he was shown to be wrong.

No, Good Life, Jones is not the bad guy here. Jones is a bastard, yes, but he’s not the bad guy.
The irrational little children who pretend to be men that have taken over the Middle East are the bad guys here.

Actually, Geoff, a rape victim does not have to prove her innocence. However, the nature of the crime is such that her accusation is a crime if it can not be proven false. However, a man filing a rape charge is held to the same standard.

Savanarola was not a witch. He was charged with heresy. Big difference. Joan was also burned by the English for being a French hero, not for witchcraft(Look into it. Witchcraft was the cover charge for what they really hated).
Actually, Geoff, hanging is a faster death, normally, than burning. Further, it’s fun to taunt emo kids claiming to be Wiccans by pointing out their absolute ignorance of history, so it’s just fun to know.

You know what? The Leftists are right. We need to stop Koran burning. It might offend radical Muslims and make them riot.
We also need to get rid of affirmative action, because it might make white supremacists riot.
And we need to ban abortion, because it might make lunatic gunmen kill doctors.

A rape victim has to prove she said “No,” resisted, etc. Even then, she has to somehow overcome widespread perceptions that “she was asking for it.”

“Savanarola was not a witch. He was charged with heresy.” Did I say that he was? Just pointed to a few prominent examples of people who were burned at the stake. When it says that witches were “burned at the stake,” then it is not unreasonable to assume that this is what was meant, given that it did happen.
And given the relations between the Reformation and witch hunts and episodes like the extermination of the Cathars, it’s not really clear how many people accused of being “witches” were really heretics, given that the Church “officially” didn’t recognise witchcraft.

“The Council of Frankfurt in 794, called by Charlemagne, was also very explicit in condemning “the persecution of alleged witches and wizards”, calling the belief in witchcraft “superstitious”, and ordering the death penalty for those who presume to burn witches.”
Similarly:
A capitulary from Saxony (775-790 CE) blamed these stereotypes on pagan belief systems: ‘If anyone, deceived by the Devil, believes after the manner of the Pagans that any man or woman is a witch and eats men, and if on this account he burns [the alleged witch]… he shall be punished by capital sentence.”
“In Denmark, the burning of witches increased following the reformation of 1536. Christian IV of Denmark, in particular, encouraged this practice, and hundreds of people were convicted of witchcraft and burnt.”
“The first major persecution in Europe, when witches were caught, tried, convicted, and burned in the imperial lordship of Wiesensteig in southwestern Germany, is recorded in 1563 in a pamphlet called ‘True and Horrifying Deeds of 63 Witches.'”
In Roman Catholic countries, the courts continue to burn witches. In Protestant lands, they were mainly hung. Some Protestant countries did not allow torture. In England, this lack of torture led to a low conviction rate of only 19%.
1616: A second witch craze broke out in Vizcaya. Again an Edict of Silence was issued by the Inquisition. But the king overturned the Edict and 300 accused witches were burned alive.
1999: Conservative Christian pastors occasionally call for a renewal of the burning times, to exterminate Wiccans and other Neopagans. One example shows the intensity of misinformation and hatred that fear of Witches can continue to generate in modern times. In 1999-AUG, Rev. Jack Harvey, pastor of Tabernacle Independent Baptist Church in Killeen, TX allegedly arranged for at least one member of his church to carry a handgun during religious services, “in case a warlock tries to grab one of our kids…I’ve heard they drink blood, eat babies. They have fires, they probably cook them…” During speeches which preceded his church’s demonstration against Wiccans, Rev. Harvey allegedly stated that the U.S. Army should napalm Witches. One of the Christian’s signs read “Witchcraft is an abomination” on one side and “Burn the witches off Ft. Hood” on the other.

“Look away from the pastor and turn your focus on Islamic Imperialism.”
Say what? Let’s see: the US has just installed two new gov’ts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Previously, the CIA chose Saddam Hussein as a likely leader for a coup in Iraq, and although his initial attempts failed, he did eventually seize power and received American support for quite some time.
Afghanistan: the US intervened there from the 1970s on, playing the “great game” against the Soviets (didn’t see “Charlie Wilson’s War”?).
Kuwait: the US supports.
Saudi Arabia: the US supports.
Egypt (Mubarak): the US supports. Until Iraq got broke and had to be fixed, Egypt and Israel were the 2 main recipients of US foreign aid.
Iran: now “Islamic” largely as a reaction to American support for a hated dictator, the Shah.
So what’s left? “Islamic Imperialism” in… Syria? Jordan? Lebanon (seems the Hezbolla in Lebanon were instrumental in getting the UN to do something about Gadaffi)?
Pakistan: possibly, after so much destabilisation in the recent past (giving Musharaf the go-ahead for his dictatorship wasn’t such a good idea after all: very short-sighted).
Indonesia?
UAE?
I have been in Northern Israel during rocket attacks from Lebanon. They were an inconvenience, nothing more. Seems like Israeli retaliation tends to be much more effective: many more Lebanese and Palestinian casualties. Maybe the Islamic Jihad and Islamic Hamas and Hizbullah should buy cruise missiles and drones and cluster bombs and fight fairly.

“A book which instructs men to scourge their wives when their wives become disobedient is not a “text devoted to the worship of God…””
Then again, I’m not sure how a book which instructs people not to eat shellfish can be a “text devoted to the worship of God…”
Big parts of the Bible are tribal rules and laws that have nothing to do with religion. How do Christians deal with the “Song of Solomon,” for example? or the (Kosher) dietary regulations? Did God say “hey: you can pick and choose what you read from this”? give you the opportunity to read what you want and ignore the rest?

“Pastor Jones burned a book. He did it to show how the islamic community would react.”
So, knowing it was likely that parts of the “Islamic community” would react the way it did, wasn’t he provoking and/or inciting rioting and murder?

No, I wanted the immediacy of the thing and a real example: the American Nazi Party marching through Skokie Illinois (a heavily Jewish suburb, populated with many Holocaust survivors):
“The debate was clear-cut: American Nazis claimed the right of free speech while their Jewish “targets” claimed the right to live without intimidation. The town, arguing that the march would assault the sensibilities of its citizens and spark violence, managed to win a court injunction against the marchers. In response, the American Civil Liberties Union took the case and successfully defended the Nazis’ right to free speech.”
The issue is taking responsibility for your actions. Jones did this, fully recognising the potential consequences, and so should be held responsible. He isn’t exactly “innocent,” is he? Has no blood on his hands, has every reason to go to sleep with a clean conscience? Kind of like Sarah Palin’s bull’s eyes had no relation whatsoever to Laughner’s shoot-out.
Kind of like anyone who ever tried to use the “just following orders” excuse resolves them of responsibility, too.

“The irrational little children who pretend to be men that have taken over the Middle East.” Karzai? al-Maliki? Netanyahu? The Saudis? the Kuwaiti Royal Family?
Mubarak is gone, Gadaffi is on his way out. Not sure if I’ve seen anything about riots in Iran over this.
Who else could that be? And how many of those who “have taken over the Middle East” are or ever have been wholly independent?

“He argued that Muslim cultures were irrationally violent.” Sounds like you’re taking the reactions of a few as being representative as a whole. A stereotype, in other words.
Kind of like saying all Americans are fat, talk loud, wear ugly bermuda shorts and get sunburned just on the basis of a small, noisy sample encountered on a European beach.
And given the context of centuries of colonisation and now attempts to free Middle Eastern countries from western-supported dictatorships, how is that violence necessarily “irrational”? I vaguely remember jokes on a Canadian comedy series years ago about some guys dressing up as “Indians” and throwing some tea into a harbour somewhere: that seems pretty “irrational” if you don’t consider the context.

Did I say that it was? Who cares if it is “private property” anyway? That’s just a distraction, a side issue: the fact is, he deliberately burned a Koran, with the knowledge that it might and apparently with the intent to show that it would lead to violent consequences. Just like standing in a crowded theatre and falsely shouting “fire,” and then saying it’s not your fault that people panicked and trampled each other on the rush to get out?

“urning books is not a crime.” Not any more, no. “Murdering books” used to be, though, strangely enough.

Want to quantify that? Even “6 million” is “not that many” by some counts. “A footnote in history,” as someone once said.

Psalm 137:
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Maybe this is the source for Tommy’s (Marine101) support for Saddam’s gassing of Kurdish civilians. I doubt it, though.

I do wonder what happened to all those bibles those two kidnapped missionaries were passing out. Just a hunch, but I doubt they were treated with reverence. I also wonder if Salman Rushdie is still in hiding? Did the supposed artist who created that urine/feces soaked crucifix also have to go into hiding?

Geoff, I’m going to break something down for you. You can’t wage a genocidal war on the Israelis like Hamas has tried to, and then be surprised when they kill you back. War is not about killing as many people as the other side, it’s about killing more. Maybe if the stunted little children dominating the Muslim world learned a new tactic as opposed to “BLIND RUSH! AHHHH!”, they’d do better.

Geoff, the Muslim world is rioting right now because this ass clown burned a Koran.
Think that means their culture has a problem.
It’s like when we see post cards of lynchings from back in the fifties. We can tell that America back then had a problem. Well, when I see the Muslim world consumed by violence over a bloody Koran being burned, I know that they have a damn problem.

The people rioting right now. The dominant culture who think the appropriate response to rape is to kill the victim, and that the appropriate response to Terry Jones’ Koran burning is to kill UN personnel. They are children, not men.

Actually, no, she has to prove that the assailant attacked her sexually.
It just so happens that falsely accusing someone of rape is a crime, so you’re basically setting yourself up for that. It’s part of innocent until proven guilty, which, thankfully, radical feminists haven’t killed yet.

Again, Geoff, the only reason she has to prove she wasn’t willing is because of presumption of innocence.
In the Middle East, innocence be damned, she’s getting her head cut off.
There’s really no comparison here amongst reasonable men.

“Hitler was wrapped up in his own maniacal passion for Aryan supremacy and viewed Jews and non-white races as sub-human.” That’s a bit one-sided. A lot of the serious research lately has found out a lot of interesting stuff that sort of contradicts the standard stereotype. Brigitte Hamann, for example, in “Hitlers Edeljude – Das Leben des Armenarztes Eduard Bloch” wrote about the respect Hitler had for the Jewish doctor who (unsuccessfully) tried to cure his mother in her last illness. There are suggestions that he might have been friends with Wittgenstein when they both went to high school together and shared an interest in Wagner. It is also clear that most of the buyers of his “paintings” were Jews (the deal was that frames sold better if they had a picture in them: people would buy the frame and throw away the “painting”). It was only sometime during his stay at the “shelter for homeless men” in Vienna that he seems to have had access to anti-Semitic literature, and there are all kinds of questions about the treatment he received in the psychiatric clinic in Pasewalk.
After that the motivations are unclear. I can’t remember the thread of John Toland’s biography, but Ian Kershaw sort of presents Hitler as a cynical actor: he knew which buttons to push to motivate other people, but seems to have been pretty hollow on his own, eventually coming to believe his own PR about himself.
Ron Rosenbaum’s “Explaining Hitler” offers some food for thought in debunking some of the stereotypes (and what causes people to perpetuate them).
After that, the “Mind of Adolf Hitler” (reprint of a WW2 OSS report) was pretty prescient, and Ernst Hanfstaengl’s “memoir” is interesting. Or Albert Speer.
So many conflicting stories make it hard to figure out if he was serious or if it was all just an act. But I don’t remember any evidence of interest on his part in the occult (although I could be wrong). Think that was one of the things he found embarassing about Himmler.

Actually, I was just thinking, Ads, about how Americans routinely complain about media bias. Let’s face it: if the good people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., staged some nice, peaceful demonstration, expressing the fact that they were offended by “Pastor” Jones’s actions, would you have heard about it? Cared?
Probably not. No more than the news media seemed to report or even care about huge anti-war protests in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq.
There seems to be some consensus that Jones is a “media whore,” trying to win some attention for himself. So, in order to win equal time, what do people in foreign countries have to do? Very cynical, I know, but… consider a lot of other grievances that the people of the Middle East have complained about but not seen any response to over the past few decades: the Saudi Royal family is corrupt, as are Mubarak and the Kuwaitis; people would like the right to vote, women would like more equality, the people of Afghanistan did not like having their country turned into a battlefield in a proxy war with the Soviets, and people would like to see fairer treatment for the Palestinians. Do you care? Have you ever even thought of those issues, and maybe considered how they are affected by American foreign policy (or oil-related politics in general)?
Probably not until someone flew some jets into some buildings in the USA, when Americans finally started paying attention.
You’re worried about the “MURDER of innocent people”? Seems that US “justice” wrongly executes quite a lot of innocent people every year. Seems a whole lot of Iraqi civilians were “shocked & awed” to death. Seems a lot of Afghani wedding parties are routinely bombed by NATO forces. Seems cruise missiles and drones occasionally hit the wrong targes. Where’s your outrage? Are you only angry this time because it’s “them” instead of “us”? Because, divorced of the context of daily killings and “collateral damage” the response seems blown out of proportion to the cause?
Would you prefer, maybe, that a party of outraged Afghanis should board a plane and come out and lynch Jones personally, so no innocents should be harmed?
People died because an arrogant little prick was so self-righteous as to let his hatred overwhelm any semblance of common sense may have had, or Christian values he is supposed to represent. If “blessed are the peacemakers” has any relevance any more, then maybe we could echo that with something like “damned are the troublemakers and shitdisturbers like the ‘Pastor’ Terry Jones.”

Actually, I was just thinking, Ads, about how Americans routinely complain about media bias. Let’s face it: if the good people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., staged some nice, peaceful demonstration, expressing the fact that they were offended by “Pastor” Jones’s actions, would you have heard about it? Cared?
Probably not. No more than the news media seemed to report or even care about huge anti-war protests in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq.
There seems to be some consensus that Jones is a “media whore,” trying to win some attention for himself. So, in order to win equal time, what do people in foreign countries have to do? Very cynical, I know, but… consider a lot of other grievances that the people of the Middle East have complained about but not seen any response to over the past few decades: the Saudi Royal family is corrupt, as are Mubarak and the Kuwaitis; people would like the right to vote, women would like more equality, the people of Afghanistan did not like having their country turned into a battlefield in a proxy war with the Soviets, and people would like to see fairer treatment for the Palestinians. Do you care? Have you ever even thought of those issues, and maybe considered how they are affected by American foreign policy (or oil-related politics in general)?
Probably not until someone flew some jets into some buildings in the USA, when Americans finally started paying attention.
You’re worried about the “MURDER of innocent people”? Seems that US “justice” wrongly executes quite a lot of innocent people every year. Seems a whole lot of Iraqi civilians were “shocked & awed” to death. Seems a lot of Afghani wedding parties are routinely bombed by NATO forces. Seems cruise missiles and drones occasionally hit the wrong targes. Where’s your outrage? Are you only angry this time because it’s “them” instead of “us”? Because, divorced of the context of daily killings and “collateral damage” the response seems blown out of proportion to the cause?
Would you prefer, maybe, that a party of outraged Afghanis should board a plane and come out and lynch Jones personally, so no innocents should be harmed?
People died because an arrogant little prick was so self-righteous as to let his hatred overwhelm any semblance of common sense may have had, or Christian values he is supposed to represent. If “blessed are the peacemakers” has any relevance any more, then maybe we could echo that with something like “damned are the troublemakers and shitdisturbers like the ‘Pastor’ Terry Jones.”

The problem with u is that u are bringing stuff into this that is not relevant. This issue is not Mubarak, NATO, nor Palestine nor any other side issue u mentioned.
The issue is the disproportionate response, the obvious HYPOCRISY and sham indignation.
What Jones did can no way on this earth in the mind of the least intelligent person justify the killing of innocents. The fact is even if Jones did not burn HIS OWN KORAN, MUSLIMS STILL RIOT AND KILL, and they let u know that without apology.
Because the real truth is, it is not Jones per se. The fact is that if ANYONE, no matter how insignificant they are, no matter which part of this world, would dare offend the Muslim lunatic fringe in the SLIGHTEST way, they would have NO CHOICE but to RIOT and KILL.
What I am hearing that Jones is the bad guy, and the KILLERS are the good guys, because they were “PROVOKED” by an insignificant little nobody.
That’s why Obama and other world leaders have to tiptoe around these MURDEROUS BARBARIANS, and I understand why u do the same, because really you’re all scared shitless of them.

“It just so happens that falsely accusing someone of rape is a crime.” As is falsely accusing someone of theft, murder, etc.
“Actually, no, she has to prove that the assailant attacked her sexually.” But no one has to prove that they have been robbed or murdered: you only have to report a theft or murder and the police investigate and collect evidence. A rape victim must prove s/he was not a willing participant.

“Again, Geoff, the only reason she has to prove she wasn’t willing is because of presumption of innocence.”
Nope. Double standard. I don’t have to prove I’ve been murdered, the police do that.

Uhm… Hamas is in no position to wage a homicidal war. They have a few rockets, and are fighting against tanks. In case you don’t remember, when Palestinian kids (“stunted little children”?) started the Intifada by throwing stones at tanks, the Israelis insisted they wouldn’t negotiate with terrorists. When the Palestinians don’t throw anything, the Israelis don’t feel any incentive to negotiate either. So things have escalated.
On the one side, people with some rockets, on the other one of the most efficient armies in the world, armed with tanks, fighters, drones and even nukes. Not very fair.
Then again: is it war? or people just trying to win their freedom?
How did Hamas get into power in Palestine? negotiations with Fatah and other “moderates” clearly weren’t getting anywhere, so people hoped maybe some hardliners might get some results. Instead they’re getting a new “Berlin Wall” and more West Bank settlements….

“The problem with u is that u are bringing stuff into this that is not relevant.” No, I’m trying to put this into context. When you write something like “MUSLIMS STILL RIOT AND KILL, and they let u know that without apology,” it’s almost as though every Muslim in the whole world has suddenly started rioting and gone on a killing spree. Gee: that’s perfectly understandable becuse they’re “MURDEROUS BARBARIANS.”
Strangely enough, that’s similar to the opinion Muslims had after the Crusaders sacked Jerusalem and killed everyone inside: Muslim, Christian, Jew. Tommy was kind enough to quote what has been rumoured to be one of their slogans at the time: “Kill them all, let God sort them out.”
“Really you’re all scared shitless of them.” Actually, the ones who scare me are the lunatic Christians who believe in the “Rapture,” given their power in the GOP. I have no trouble with Muslims because I can understand them. Batshit crazy Christian fundamentalists who want the world to end: that is scary.

“They are children, not men.” Sort of what happens after centuries of colonisation and dictatorship.
It’s not as though people in most of the Middle East really have much of a chance to take much responsibility for their actions, is it? No votes, women don’t have equal rights, the countries are still more or less ruled by foreign proxies.
But yes: terrorism is a response by the weak. If you want them to fight fairly with F-16s, tanks, cruise missiles, cluster bombs and drones, then perhaps they need to be able to buy some.

“The Muslim world is rioting right now.” Where are the riots? In every predominately Muslim country (Indonesia? Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan?), or just a few? If it’s just a few, then your statement “that means their culture has a problem” has a problem, because the “Muslim world” consists of a number of countries, with a whole lot of ethnic groups, speaking a large number of languages, so it’s a little difficult to speak of “their culture.” Similarly, I would not have said lynching was a symptom of culture but society, but… what do I know?
And yes: there are a lot of problems in the Muslim world, as in any post-colonial society (witness all the civil wars going on in Africa right now), and the whole situation has to some degree been compounded by the end of the Cold War (funding to dictators cut off), etc. Human rights problems, interference by various groups (Saudi funding, Pakistani intelligence, CIA, Taliban, Iranians, etc.).
To blame it all on “culture,” though, is overly simplistic.

Hamas is in no position to wage a genocidal war. Didn’t stop them from trying.
Why should the Palestinians get anything other than a wall? They voted HAMAS into office.

No, Geoff, it’s not. No more than it would be to say that America had a problem when we put lynchings on postcards. It’s just the truth.

Why give the little manchildren tanks? They’ll just use them on UN workers or rape victims.

Because the lack of consent is what makes the crime.
Smashing someone’s window, breaking in, and running off with their TV is a crime.
Putting a bullet in someone’s head is a crime.
Having sex with someone is not.
It’s the lack of consent that MAKES the crime, therefore the lack of consent must be proven. Read a damn book.

Because you’re dead, and your body is proof of that.
It’s a crime to murder or rape someone. It is NOT a crime to have sex with them. Therefore, the woman has to prove it was nonconsensual, or presumption of innocence says we must find the man not guilty.

Geoff, war is not fair. It’s not the Israelis fault the Palestinians barely train their men to know which way to shoot the rifles.

“Because the lack of consent is what makes the crime.” Yes, and the victim has to prove she did not consent. You do not have to prove you have been robbed, you do not have to prove you have been murdered, but someone has to prove that s/he did not give consent, that s/he was not “asking for it” by their behaviour, dress, or even not saying “NO!” loud and often enough.
If you read some of the literature, you might find examples of cases where women, believing they would be killed if they did not consent, did so, and the rapists were using that against them. If you read the literature, it is generally agreed that being raped is better than being murdered, and the usual advice is: don’t get killed. But that hardly constitutes consent, either, in the real world, but the onus is still on the victim to prove she was scared for her life.
Sorry: it’s the one case where the onus of proof is reversed. Everywhere else the perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty, with rape the victim is assumed guilty until s/he can first prove his/her innocence.

“Didn’t stop them from trying.” When did they try?
“It’s not the Israelis fault the Palestinians barely train their men to know which way to shoot the rifles.” No, that’s why the Palestinians rely on rockets and bombs on busses.
Then again, given that much of “Palestine” is “occupied territory,” that the borders are controlled by the Israelis, that the Palestinians don’t have an army, navy, air force… going against the IDF with rifles would be suicide. Better to stick with stones.

“They’ll just use them on UN workers or rape victims.”
Why don’t you just “bomb them back into the Stone Age”? Or take Tommy’s advice to “kill them all and let God sort them out”?
Then again, if they’re going to be weak, you can expect them to continue to hit weak targets.
Supposedly the Afghanis and Iraqis are taking over part of their respective countries, soon, and presumably they will have tanks and armoured cars and APCs. That was the whole justification for invading, wasn’t it? To bring “democracy,” so they could defend themselves, etc.? Do you expect them all to start attacking UN workers and rape victims then?

“What is truth?” is the oldest question in philosophy.
Lynchings on postcards, photos in Abu Ghraib, waterboarding at Gitmo, US support for the Saudis and Mubarak and Saddam. They’re the “truth,” too, right? All very simple: Americans stopped lynching at home, but were really proud to be abusing “rag heads” at Abu Ghraib, so proud that they took snapshots of themselves doing it. And so far only the photos of male victims have been released, none of the female… and the US has always stood by its allies, like the Saudis, even when they’re financing terrorism, violating human rights, suppressing democracy, etc. Gave Mubarak lots of “foreign aid” while he was abusing human rights. Supported Saddam while he was gassing Kurdish civilians because he was fighting the Iranians who had dared to overthrow that paragon of American values, the Shah.
Your statement “their culture has a problem” is demonstably false: lots of cultures, not all Muslims are rioting, and lots of problems. We could complicate things with metaphysics and variants on causality (immediate cause, material cause, etc.) but why bother?

Hamas’ charter had, for the longest time, a clause saying Israel had to get wiped out.
So, basically, you admit the Palestinians suck at fighting.

And we punished the people at Abu Ghraib.
These rioters will not be punished.
Their culture has problems. That’s the simple truth. If they refuse to admit it, we’ll have to fix them the way we did the South some day.

Frankly, Geoff, they might just. This is all because someone burned a Koran.
Further, there’s no evidence “Kill them all and let God sort them out” was said on the Crusades.

Actually, no. The accuser has to prove the accused did something. That’s the same as every crime. It just so happens that, if you can only prove they had sex with you, THAT DOES NOT CONSTITUTE RAPE YOU IDIOTIC FUCK!
The victim is not assumed “guilty”, she’s assumed to be wrong until she proves her claims. Same as any other crime. The problem is that rape is purely a crime of consent, as opposed to a crime like, say, taking a hatchet to someone 50 times.

So, Geoff, their culture has no problems?
Honor killings are not a problem?
Rioting because a Koran was burned is not a problem?
Maybe we should bring back the Klan. After all, they weren’t a problem, am I right?

Thank you for the references that I will scrutinise some day. However, I am baffled by your efforts to defend sharia law and looking the other way, when they stone the raped child or womand or man to death to silence the witness, and let off the usually Islamic rapist in those countries, where sharia law is supreme law and enforced by stones, gallows, bullets, yet more rapists etc. Your lecture is off the point, as I mentioned this systematic reverse accusation and punishment mechanism of sharial law creeping in under Mr Calge and our leader’s and apparently your skin, in relation to some of you accusing the pastor in Florida for crimes he did not commit, but he reported to the authorities as prevalent, repetitive and premeditated murderous beheadings, murderous arson and major distruction by Islamic Imperialist powers and their agents and jihadist militray units. So, thank you for the lecture, and I shall do what I can to bring relevant activists’ and parliamentrians attention to this glich in our laws, which are revisable through act of parliament and test cases at the court system, and public hearings. Combat Islamic Imperialism wherever you see it, whenever you see it, and forget about your simplistic “this was all due to colonialism”…Islam was from its inception a colonialistic, very violenty militaristic aggressive Imperialistic power and is today!

To those defending Isalmic decapitators and terminators, and mocking the pastor and blaming all at “colonialism”: I am baffled by your efforts to defend sharia law and looking the other way, when they behead UN staff, stone raped children or women or men to death to silence the witness, and let off the usually Islamic rapist in those countries, where sharia law is supreme law and enforced by stones, gallows, bullets, yet more rapists etc. Your lectures are all off the point, because you are consciously or subconsciously are trying to divert blame from killers to others. I mentioned this systematic reverse accusation and punishment mechanism of sharial law creeping in under Mr Calge and our leader’s and some of the commentators’ skin, in relation to their/your accusing of the pastor in Florida for crimes he did not commit, but he reported to the authorities as prevalent, repetitive and premeditated murderous beheadings, murderous arson and major distruction by Islamic Imperialist powers and their agents and jihadist militray units. So, thank you for the lectures, and I shall do what I can to pay due attention to glitches in our secular, liberal laws, which are revisable through act of parliament and test cases at the court system, and public hearings. You cannot do that when dealing with sharia law, however, you need instead to combat and defeat Islamic Imperialism wherever you see it, whenever you see it, and forget about your simplistic “this was all due to colonialism”…Islam was from its inception a colonialistic, very violenty militaristic aggressive Imperialistic power and is today!

A suggetion: anyone not getting the point the pastor made, a point that an increasing number secular, atheist liberal critics of Islam/Vatican and religious oppressors do in other ways: do journalist Daniel Pearl after and go investigate what Islamic Imperialists really are up to instead of sitting here and defending Islam. However, you have to take care, because Daniel Pearl was kidnapped, held hostage and beheaded in a collective Islamic serial killer pattern, a kind of Islamic copycat serial killings in footsteps of the founder warlord of Islam, Mohammad.

Not wrong in the fact that we all knew there were some right wing crazies in Islam.

Wrong in how a Christian is to treat the crazies in other religions. And it is NOT to be a right wing crazy yourself.

Bottom line he proved he’s a “christian?” and not a follower of the teachings of Jesus or Paul.

And a man that is too chicken ____ to do violence himself inflicts violence by remote control. He hires the military to do his violence then makes sure their job is impossible to do. Thereby killing not only those he disagrees with but also the surrogates that he helped send to do the deed.

Which is living by God?? Neither—One is just inflicting violence by remote control. Sort of like hiring the Roman Army to do the deed so the hands of the ministers would not touch the blood.

Jesus forgave the soldiers..”For they know not what they do.” He did not forgive the doers of the deed even though their hands had no direct blood.

Is Christianity the same as other religions or different than other religions? Are Christians taught to fallow the lead of others or set a new path for others to see and follow? Is “correct” in Christianity dependent on what others do or is “correct” a higher standard that others can look up to?

Jones is an ass. We all know he’s an ass.
However, he’s no where near as bad as the children in men’s bodies who are blowing things up in the Middle East.

If you have been robbed, you don’t have to prove anything: the cops investigate and press charges. If you have been murdered, you don’t have to prove anything: the cops investigate and press charges. If you have been raped, you first have to prove lack of consent before anyone will press charges, and then prove it again, in court.

“In the Middle East, innocence be damned, she’s getting her head cut off.” Unless she has 4 male witnesses.

“Reasonable men.” Interesting emphasis on “men,” as though women should be kept out of this discussion altogether.

“Reasonable men.” Interesting emphasis on “men,” as though women should be kept out of this discussion altogether.

Join peaceful, legal demonstrations against mosques, dear secular, liberals. Mosques are described as they really are, by the Trukish Islamic state-leader Erdogan as military complexes of Islam. Secular, liberals and other atheists have to realise that we have to show our protest against the radicalisation of youth already perpetrated by mosque networks, and also stop further covert Islamic militray activity through the mosque networks. Take the limelight and the anti-Islamimperialism from pastor Jones, if you don’t like him and other book-burners and religious leaders. Many of us secular, liberals are leaving the anti-Islamimperialist scene empty for others to fill. Do not blame the pastor for this secular, liberal mistake nor do blame the pastor for our enemies’ Islamic beheadings of UN staff. While some of you fellow secular liberals are defending Islamists, the pastor has already taken next step to defy Isalmists: Skynews reports, that he has announced a protest in front of USA’s biggest Islamic base, one of many Islamic Trojan Horses.

“I am baffled by your efforts to defend sharia law and looking the other way, when they behead UN staff, stone raped children or women or men to death to silence the witness, and let off the usually Islamic rapist in those countries, where sharia law is supreme law and enforced by stones, gallows, bullets, yet more rapists etc.”
It seems that you have not been paying attention to protests against “justice” in, say, Saudi Arabia for decades by groups like AI, etc. I for one am not defending Sharia law, I just dislike ignorant people who have looked the other way for a long time because the Saudis or the Shah or Mubarak was a “valued ally” all of a sudden realise what tyrants they’ve been supporting. It seems that Sharia law is OK when the Saudis do it, but not OK when it happens in Afghanistan. Double standard?
After that, I just have a strong sense of deja vu all over again: a whole lot of lies and misinformation going around about Islam that is all too similar to the lies and disinformation that went around about Jews, using the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” as a reference: Jewish plans to conquer the world, etc. In the 1950s it was the “Reds under the Bed” scare, at one time it was the “Yellow Peril” and “White Slavery” and the danger that women and/or blacks might be able to vote, etc.; all examples that eventually reveal more about someone’s own particular brand of paranoia than it does about the real world.
“Islamic Imperialist powers.” That would refer to… the Saudis? Interesting phrase, but… does it actually refer to anything or just sound impressive?
“Islam was from its inception a colonialistic, very violenty militaristic aggressive Imperialistic power.” Nope. It couldn’t have spread so fast or taken such strong hold if it hadn’t appealed to the masses of people then occupying North Africa, the Middle and Near East. It offered a form of salvation accessible to everyone.

“So, basically, you admit the Palestinians suck at fighting.” I don’t know: I’ve never fought one, one-to-one. Granted, I will admit that throwing rocks at tanks and armed troops takes balls, and might achieve the aim of gaining international attention, but it failed in its long-term objective: the Israelis still aren’t negotiating, and the international community eventually lost patience with the lack of progress (Israeli victory).
First off: the Palestinains are clearly outgunned. They have some rockets, maybe some AK-47s, etc. The Israelis have F-15s, F-16s, tanks, nukes, etc. No contest.
Secondly, the Palestinians are divided. Hamas is not Palestine, it is only one party among many, and the old PLO has more or less disappeared because it was only an umbrella organisation for a whole pile of different factions all competing for power and different aims.
“Hamas’ charter had, for the longest time, a clause saying Israel had to get wiped out.” So far as I know, it still does. Supposedly the PLO charter says that, too. Doesn’t matter. From the Palestinian point of view, that seems to be their only remaining bargaining chip: they’ve offered to give up most of East Jerusalem, including all claims to having it as their capital; I don’t think they imagine they will have the right to an army, the West Bank will be a strange patchwork of “settlements” connected to Israel by walled roads, so the Palestinians essentially have no contiguous territory, they will have little or no control over their own borders, etc. In the bargaining process they gave everything else away, ostensibly to keep it in reserve. If they give that up, what can they use to bring the Israelis to the bargaining table? Other than breaking some or all of their previous promises, thus playing into Israeli hands (“see? look: you can’t trust the Palestinians”).
Pragmatically, the Palestinians realise Israel is there to stay, and that it is in everyone’s best interest to have peace and make money. But… you need two parties in any negotiations.

Albigensian Crusade
“In 1204, he was named a papal legate and inquisitor and was sent by Innocent III with Peter of Castelnau and Arnoul to attempt the conversion of the Albigensians. Failing in this, he distinguished himself by the zeal with which he incited men by his preaching to the crusade against these heretics.

“According to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, one of the leaders of the Crusader army, at the siege of Béziers in 1209, when asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics, Arnaul Amalric supposedly answered:

“‘Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius (Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His.)”

“Their culture has no problems?” I’m asking you to define which “culture” you mean. Who are “they”? All Muslims?

I agree they are both “asses” but which one stains you and me? Just as the crazy few represent Islam to you, which one represents “Christian” to the nonChristian world? Which one represents the US military to the people they have to deal with? Which one is putting “us” in danger?

Just because something is legal for a Christian to do, doesn’t make it correct in the eyes of God for a Christian to do. A Christian isn’t to abuse his/her freedoms.

1Cor 8:9-13

Do you make decisions on what you “want” to believe or what God tells you to do?

Was Jones following the teachings in the Bible when he set the book on fire? A Christian is to think about every action they take and judge it on the teachings they “say” they believe in. Every action Jones, you, me, or anyone else does should be governed by what we say we believe. Every action Jones, you, me or anyone else does ripples forever. It’s just a little more obvious in this case than in others. Just because the Pharisees didn’t kill Jesus doesn’t mean the blood wasn’t on their hands. Just because Jones didn’t detonate the bomb, doesn’t remove the blood from his hands. Cause-Effect

So finally you said it: Islam is the salvation accessible to everyone, is it really? Islam spread fast, i.e. conquered the World not only in the regions you mention, but also in Byzantic Rome, which is the Islamist Erdogan’s domain now again, in Europe, just stopped by fierce European bravery and resistence at the gates of Vienna, and India and Mongolia, were they saved by Islam, come on, Sir, you are not secular, liberal – Islamophiliac Amnesty Internationalist, maybe, caring for freedom, women’s right, children’s protection and econmonical, sexual and social freedom, not, and caring for freedom of expression, apparently not at all, when it come to others than decapitating, paedophilic Islamists’s right to express their violence. Good. It is nothing new, Sir. You keep your opinions an express them freely, just want to let others be enlightened as to who means business defeating Islamic Imeprialism, who reads his/her history lessons incl. the Imperialistic, salve-trading, discriminating, Muslim-Dhimmi racist, misogynic, paedophlic militarism…wow, I have to catch my breath between the many inhumane attributes of Islamic Imperialism, that I better rest my case. Amnesty International has a programme of cleansign out British Islam-critics out of its ranks, and you better also check out Channel Four documentaries Undercover Mosques, Undercover Mosque -the return, Britain’s Islamic Republic and also Lessons in Hate and Violence to see investigative journalists’ painstaking undercover film reports and comprehensive interviews, to see how even Muslim-born Brits are engaged in direct action against Islamic infiltration and violence inside the big parties, in the school system, in mosques undermining secular, liberal, democracy. BP was never hipocratic, they are thursty for oil, and make deals with any bastard. You, Sir, accsuing them for nurturing Shah, Mubarak, who by the way both were Islamic and maintained and nurtured mosques and mullahs to their benefit and peril, you are yourself demonstrating hipocrisy by calling Islam a salvation – no offence, I am just explaining what you have written here already. No losing face in admitting it and move on, Sir, but please do not try to defy the vast evidence of Islamic Crimes Agaisnt Humanity from day 1 of its inception and way into 21. Century, continuing on with beheading of UN staff in Afghanistan, by calling beheadings a salvation, but pastor Jones’ Quran burning an act of what?

Imperialists do not spread by offering salvation, but by other means, be it the good, the bad, or the ugly Imperialists. Even the liberal democratic Imperialists cannot just talk other nations to sense, many times military and diplomatic/financial pressure is needed to spread good freedoms to nations decerebrated by totalitarian aggressors. On the other end of the spectrum, where Islam and Nazism belong, the WW II history tells us all. The Nazi-Fascist-Kamikaze-Japanese axis and their allies did not conquer half of the World incl.almost the whole of mainland Europe, by offering them any “accssible salvation”, but by military invasion, as Islam did from its inception. The Nazi-axis and their Islamic allies offered nothing than hate to Jews, KZ- and slave labour camps, extermination of arbotrary groups of human beings, showering London with V2 long ranging unmanned drone bombs, enslaving Korean women, slaughtering Chinese people savagely etc. Good than Londoners did not believe in your Amnesty to the aggressive Imperialists, and they stayed and fought it out with more than a little help from American liberal democracy and a tactical alliance with communist Stalin, which of course in hindsight cost a lot many human lives after the war, in Eastern Europe, in Russia and due to Cold War…but tactical alliances with religious powers, worse of all Islam or Vatican, is not only a mistake, but a crime against humanity – look at what these kind of alliances have produced of filthy mass murder and degradation of human nature short term and long term in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Sudan, not to mention the nuclear Pakistan! Also read Niccolo Machiavelli’s the Prince, chapter XI, to understand why both Vatican and Islamists hate Machiavelli’s writings: he exposes the mechanisms of power based on historical references. He says it very short and clearly, so I refer to that section.

The psychopaths trying to kill people are putting us in danger. Jones is a fool, but he’s not the one committing murders right now. If anything, he’s trying to commit suicide.

Again, this is not about Jones’ patent lack of common sense.
This is about people saying he should be arrested, or that he’s as bad as the actual murderers.

The prevailing culture of the Middle East. The one that says rioting because a Koran was burned is OK, or that you can kill your daughter because she was raped.

So one guy says he might have said something LIKE “Kill them all and let God sort them out.”.
Far from being the motto of the Crusaders. Further, who’s Tommy?

Because THE LACK OF CONSENT IS THE FUCKING CRIME!
The Cops can come see that your house was broken into.
They can see that you clearly have a bullet in your head.
How can they see if you consented?

He killed the people as surely as the Pharisees killed Jesus. Jesus forgave the soldiers with the blood on their hands. He did not forgive those that instituted the blood letting.

Yes, he is the one committing murder by remote control. He is the one that is endangering you and me by inflaming passions

Sorry, I forgot: women have nothing better to do all day than cook up false accusations of rape. They secretly enjoy having their complete sexual histories being scrutinised in a courtroom (“Let’s see: you’ve had sex before, so you’re probably guilty of having made a false accusation”), having blown-up photos of their genitalia displayed, searching for evidence of “forced entry,” etc. I keep forgetting about that “feminazi agenda.”
If cops “can come see that your house was broken into,” then can’t doctors “see” that a woman’s body has been “broken into”?
Is it because everyone knows that when a woman says “NO!” she secretly means “yes”? Then she must be guilty of making a false accusation.
Is it because, by her behaviour or dress or some other failure, she was “asking for it”? Then she must be guilty of making a false accusation.
How, for that matter, can the cops see that you didn’t consent to have your house broken into, or to having a bullet in your head? In both cases, despite investigations and preparation for trial, in one case the onus is on the victim first to prove innocence before proving the rapist’s guilt; in the other case the victim is assumed innocent, and the trial only revolves around proving the perp’s guilt.
Double standard, OK?
If you really want to understand it, I suggest you read the relevant literature, or go talk to someone at a rape crisis counselling centre. Or even a lawyer. No sense taking the word of someone on an online discussion group.

Wait what? What did he do? He just set a book on fire.
If someone has the idea that setting a book on fire means you should kill random people, it’s not the fault of the man who set the book on fire. Otherwise, I demand we arrest all abortion doctors for provoking pro-life terrorists. Oh, oh, and all civil rights activists for provoking the Ku Klux Klan.

Did I write anything about genocide? The term you used, which I copied, was that “Israel had to get wiped out.”
Before that you wrote “You can’t wage a genocidal war on the Israelis like Hamas has tried to, and then be surprised when they kill you back,” and I questioned whether Hamas had ever even tried to “wage a genocidal war on the Israelis.”
You made an assertion for which I have seen no evidence.
Israel is a country, just like Yugoslavia used to be a country. Yugoslavia was “wiped out” and turned into Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, etc. The issue is the existence of Israel in its present location, and the problem of a “homeland” for the Palestinians. That does not need to involve “genocide”: it could lead to some kind of agreement (“all Israelis will leave for a new homeland in Territory X”) or Israelis and Palestinians agree to live together in a new federated country, or… something else. Just wiping Israel or some other legal territory off the map is not synonymous with genocide. Fighting for political change is not the same as genocide (if this were true, then your “founding Fathers” and everyone who ever goes on strike or protests injustice is guilty of commiting “genocide”).
Just a bit of hyperbole on your part.

Geoff, Duke Lacrosse Case. As horrible as it is, women do lie. They realize they just slept with someone they didn’t really like. Just remember, if there are men callous enough to rape women, there are women callous enough to falsely accuse the men of the same.
It’s not a double standard. It’s a fair standard. Because all the forensics in the world can’t determine your state of mind(consent), you have to.
Actually, Geoff, doctors can’t see that a woman’s body was broken into. IF they’re fast enough, they MIGHT be able to prove that she had sex.
Which proves nothing in regards to getting raped.
The only double standard here is yours.

Hey kids! Geoff says we should just throw our rights away! We don’t need “Presumption of Innocence”! The Fraupolizei will take care of us!

Your statement: “Further, there’s no evidence “Kill them all and let God sort them out” was said on the Crusades.”
It was. I never claimed this to be “the motto of the Crusaders.” Given the diversity of Crusaders and their many differing motives, I don’t believe they could all have had a single motto.
Tommy now calls himself “Marine1922” and “BitterPill.”

About the 1999 case.
On one hand, I am committed to human rights.
On the other hand, the stupid kids with makeup claiming to be “Wiccans” just barely count as humans.
What a shame it is when either side’s victory results in society’s loss.

“The prevailing culture of the Middle East.”
Which is what? Palestinian? Saudi? Taliban? Kurdish?
Sunni? Shiite? Zoroastran? Christian?
There is no “prevailing culture of the Middle East”: this is one of the reasons why Iraq and Lebanon seem to be on the verge of Civil War all the time. Why Syrians argue they need a strong leader, even why Israelis get so worked up in their politics.
“The one that says rioting because a Koran was burned is OK.” And where are they doing this? Everywhere in the “Middle East”? Every village, town, country?
“Or that you can kill your daughter because she was raped.” And where does this happen? Everywhere in the “Middle East”?

“And we punished the people at Abu Ghraib.” No, you punished a “few bad apples” and brushed the whole thing under the carpet.
“Their culture has problems.” Which culture? There are a lot of cultures involved. If there weren’t, the Middle East would be a whole lot more peaceful than it is.
“If they refuse to admit it, we’ll have to fix them the way we did the South some day.” You mean like you’ve fixed Iraq and Afghanistan?

The Christian world has a problem.
Catholic priests especially seem to have a problem with child abuse.
The US has a problem with excessive energy consumption.
The western industrialised nations have problems with pollution, banking regulations, trade agreements, etc.
The world has problems with AIDS, global warming, economic disparity, etc.
Seems like you’re trying to avoid calling them “rag heads” something like “uppity.”

No. I’m suggesting that justice has a double standard in this case. I’m not alone in this: lawyers say the same thing, sociologists say the same thing, women’s rights groups say the same thing, rape counsellors say the same thing, the FBI & law enforcement agencies basically admit it (the lack of persecutions or cases going to trial), etc.
Nice to see you taking this seriously, and not as some kind of a joke.

“There are women callous enough to falsely accuse the men of the same.” Must be pretty masochistic, given the admitted (by law enforcement agencies) of cases going ahead to trial.
“They realize they just slept with someone they didn’t really like.” Gee: how inconvenient. Happens to all of us, once or twice. So… how does that transform into a wish to have your whole life scrutinised in a courtroom?
Women don’t seem to want their families to know they’ve been raped, to have their whole sexual histories debated in order to prove that they were asking for it, etc. What are they? “attention whores”?
Google it, if you don’t believe me (and why should you?). The link below is pretty representative.
And actually, the police can’t see that your house has been broken into, either, unless you get it all on film. They can find evidence which suggests that, and maybe enough evidence to stand up in a court of law, beyond any reasonable doubt.

“Geoff says we should just throw our rights away!”
More like victims should not have to prove their innocence. They are not on trial.

“The stupid kids with makeup claiming to be “Wiccans” just barely count as humans.”
Kind of what I think of a lot of people claiming to be Christians who evidently haven’t got a clue what’s actually in the Bible.

“The liberal democratic Imperialists.” That’s self-contradictory, isn’t it?
Since you still haven’t identifed these “Islamic Imperialist powers,” it’s still not clear who you’re talking about, and this makes it very difficult to understand whatever point you think you’re trying to make when you say something like “Look at what these kind of alliances have produced of filthy mass murder and degradation of human nature short term and long term in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Sudan, not to mention the nuclear Pakistan!”
Interesting to see you blame this on “American liberal democracy” (or shouldn’t that be “American liberal democratic Imperialists”?) and not “Islamic Imperialist powers,” because it seems like you’re blaming “the liberal democratic Imperialists” and “Islamic Imperialist powers” for “filthy mass murder and degradation of human nature short term and long term in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Sudan, not to mention the nuclear Pakistan!”
Or are you trying to portray “Islamic Imperialist powers” as a response to the “filthy mass murder and degradation of human nature short term and long term in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Sudan, not to mention the nuclear Pakistan!” caused by “The liberal democratic Imperialists”?
Maybe if you didn’t try to use so many big words and cliches your meaning might be clearer.

“Islam is the salvation accessible to everyone, is it really?” That is one argument that has been used to explain its rapid spread. Comparison with the mechanised warfar of the 2nd world war in this sense is misleading. Problems with the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires are considered contributing factors.
“Islam spread fast, i.e. conquered the World not only in the regions you mention, but also in Byzantic Rome.” Byzantium and Rome were two different cities, and ultimately two differnt empires. So I’m not sure what you mean by “Byzantic Rome.” The Byzantine Empire? Rome itself under the Byzantines? Rome and Byzantium?
“Please do not try to defy the vast evidence of Islamic Crimes Agaisnt Humanity from day 1 of its inception and way into 21. Century.” I won’t, and don’t think I ever did. But I won’t accept people getting hysterical over crimes by Islam while ignoring the crimes commited by supposed Christians in the name of Christianity over the centuries: Crusades, Inquisition, 30 Years’ War, “Troubles” in Northern Ireland, etc.
“Continuing on with beheading of UN staff in Afghanistan, by calling beheadings a salvation.” Did I write that?
“But pastor Jones’ Quran burning an act of what?” Well, it was obviously a most humble act of the deepest Christian piety, showing a deep regard for everything Jesus taught and died for: tolerance, love and acceptance. Very good of him to see through that socialist revisionism as “blessed are the peacemakers” or that evil advice not to judge others, lest ye be judged. A true act of “liberal democratic Imperialism”?

“Geoff, it’s not Jones’ fault that some stunted little children in the Middle East think killing people is a good response to an insult.”
Very patronising of you, to begin with: “stunted little children.”
Would you prefer that they all get on planes, fly out to Florida and tell Jones to his face what they think of his charades?
If they protested peacefully, sitting around somewhere singing “Kumbaya,” would you have noticed (or cared)?
They are weak people fighting with the weapons they have.
And if they are weak (or stunted), you might want to consider why. In Saudi Arabia, they are ruled by… a Royal family put in place as a result of new lines drawn on the map with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. The Saudis don’t want their people to be anything but “stunted.” Afghanistan is poor after several being used as a battlefield between various great powers for several centuries. Oil money in some countries never helps the people in those regions (Iraq under Saddam was to some degree an exception: women were supposed to have had more rights there than most women in the Islamic world).
So: what alternate would you propose as a “good response to an insult”?

What was the “good” he was trying to accomplish? Civil rights workers were trying to accomplish a good. Yes they actually did provoke the KKK and were partially responsible for the violence. (Just as those that waved palms were partially responsible for the killing of Jesus as it provoked the decision makers) (Every action every person takes ripples out and changes the entire world. [Butterfly Effect] That is why one must think what “good” he is doing with absolutely every action.) But they were trying to accomplish a “Greater Good”. What is the “Greater Good” Jones was trying to accomplish? What change in the world did he think would happen by this action? What change was he seeking? How was this action going to reach those that could implement that change?

The civil rights workers were attempting to reach the decision makers in congress and the states. And were reaching them through the voters. Who was Jones reaching? What was he asking those he was reaching to do? What different actions would have accomplished the same goal?

It is because all actions have consequences that I ask those that claim “Christian” to justify their actions, their votes, their arguments by the Bible. Not what they want it to say, but what it actually says. Very few of those that claim to be the strongest “christians?” can justify what they do and advocate. But what they do and advocate becomes “Christian” to the observers of the world. Just as “muslims?” are “Muslim” to you. It is the duty of “Christians” to reach out and show the “Good News” to the world. To make people want to be or look into “Christian”. When someone that doesn’t have a clue becomes the face of “Christian” the reaction of the world is the same as your actions toward “Islam” because the crazies are what you see of “Islam”. You don’t see the 99% of Islam, they don’t see the 90% of Christian. You see bombers, they see Jones and Robertson and Falwell (may he find forgiveness) and they see all of the “christians?” that promote “God is Love” through as much hate as they can muster.

Jones didn’t break the law so I don’t see how they could arrest him for anything beyond air pollution. But just because someone doesn’t break a law doesn’t mean he isn’t responsible to God for his actions.

When the priests walked past the man on the side of the road they didn’t break the law. But they didn’t follow the teachings of their God.

Yes, his hands have as much blood as the actual murderers. He was told what would happen. He knew people would die if he did the action. A Christian isn’t only responsible for what they do…A Christian is also responsible for what they can prevent. The priests didn’t beat up the traveler…They didn’t try to save a life. The blood is as much on their hands as the hands of those that did the actual beating.

He knew that his actions would bring about violence. He also knew his actions wouldn’t bring about any greater good. By burning the book he was plotting the deaths of innocent people that he knew would die in the violence caused by his actions. In a sense that is worse than the Pharisees. They at least thought they were defending the religion as they saw it. Jones religion wasn’t under any sort of serious attack. There isn’t a new prophet that could revolutionize his religion. Jones actions were for nothing. The deaths that he knew would occur were for nothing. He hasn’t given a goal that he was trying to achieve other than he had the right to do it so he did it. Directly against the teachings of Paul that said just because a Christian has the freedom to do something, it is a sin if it harms the conscience of others. His actions were designed for nothing else EXCEPT to harm the conscience of others. 1Cor 8:8-12 Among many other passages that talk about damaging the conscience of others.

What he proved was what we knew…Christianity among those that claim to be the strongest believers has a major problem. Those that say they are the “fundamentalist” don’t have a clue what the fundamentals of Christianity are.

So you teach them by being represented by a child that does a childish act just because he can? Or do you teach them through Love?

The good he was trying to accomplish?
It appears exposing the middle east as violent. Which he kind of did.
Also, if they see Robertson, and they see bombers?
THEY’RE WORSE!
Robertson’s a clown. Bombers KILL PEOPLE!

Actually, no. He was not trying to get people killed. He was trying to get a camera on him.
He’s not as bad as the actual bombers. They’re worse. He did not make them take up their arms. They did it of their own will.
“Just following orders.” is not a defense.

A good response to an insult? Get a picture of Jones. Put it only a toilet paper roll. Take a picture. Put it on the internet.
Or, ignore it, because Jones is an idiot.
Something OTHER than mass murder!

Ah, of course, Hamas just wants Israel dissolved.
Which is why Sheik Nasrallah once said he wanted all the Jews to go to Israel, so he could take them all on there.

Right. So we should blame rape victims for dressing like sluts, and civil rights workers for provoking the Klan, and abortion clinic doctors for provoking doctor killing psychopaths.

We punished the people who took the photos.
The entire Middle East has problems.
We fixed the South. We just weren’t nice about it.

Geoff, the Catholic Church’s Priests actually don’t have a higher rate of molestation of their charges than, say, public school teachers.
The Roman Catholic Church’s problem is their use of cover ups. And it’s a big problem.
And Geoff, I am well aware the US has problems. We’re a country full of prideful, materialistic people who allow over a million abortions a year to occur.
That is not relevant to the manchildren who think killing innocents is an appropriate response to an insult.

Don’t worry kids! Geoff says that if we just give up all our trial rights, the people will be safer!
I’ve got news for you, Geoff, women lie. They forget. They mistake one person for another. Cops lie, DA’s lie.
THAT is why we give people accused of rape a presumption of innocence. Because otherwise, we’d have sent the Duke Lacrosse boys to jail for life on the whims of a psychopathic stripper and a crooked DA.

There’s no double standard here whatsoever. It’s the same as any other crime, in that there’s a presumption of innocence on the accused.
It’s just that rape is a crime of consent, so it is harder to prove.
Remember, men who get raped have the same problem.

WE KNEW there was a violent thread in Islam. He DIDN”T need to expose that. There was NO value in that, NO greater good. Out of almost a Billion Muslims, how many took action in this case?

Of the fundamentalist “christians?” in this country—How many advocated sending surrogates in uniform to kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims? Just like the Pharisees sent surrogates in uniform to kill one person.

Which is worse? One bomb killing a few, or advocating and encouraging thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of bombs killing hundreds of thousands? Just because they don’t do the act themselves, doesn’t take the blood from their hands.

Would Jesus have advocated the killing of the few? NO Would Jesus have advocated sending surrogates to kill the tens of thousands??????

The fundamentalist “christians?” of the US encouraged and promoted the bombs.

Bombers KILL PEOPLE!

He knew exactly what would happen. He wasn’t ignorant of the results of his actions. If it was only a publicity stunt, that is even worse. Knowingly doing something that will get people killed for one’s own ego.

I just provoked the evil for my own ego, also is not a defense.

If a person encourages a known sexual offender to rape a woman, is the encourager also not morally (I didn’t say legally) responsible?

Civil rights workers did provoke the klan. But they knowingly did it for an expressed greater good. Jones had no greater good. Nothing happened that would improve the world and he wasn’t attempting to make any changes that would improve the world.

Abortion clinic doctors do provoke doctor killing psychopaths. They do it for what they see as a greater good. Since the “christians?” of the US will not give the young women Hope or Love, they serve to restore hope in the women’s lives. The doctors would see giving hope where there is no hope as an expressed greater good. Jones had no greater good in mind. Even you said it was nothing more than an individual ego trip. Abortion doctors do not seek individual publicity.

Your rape example is really warped. Who in your mind is the rapist and who is the victim? I would see Jones as the rapist that set up revenge violence for his action of raping the beliefs of other children of God. I’ve given you the verses where a true Christian isn’t to rape other beliefs.

Civil rights workers did provoke the klan. But they knowingly did it for an expressed greater good. Jones had no greater good. Nothing happened that would improve the world and he wasn’t attempting to make any changes that would improve the world.

Abortion clinic doctors do provoke doctor killing psychopaths. They do it for what they see as a greater good. Since the “christians?” of the US will not give the young women Hope or Love, they serve to restore hope in the women’s lives. The doctors would see giving hope where there is no hope as an expressed greater good. Jones had no greater good in mind. Even you said it was nothing more than an individual ego trip. Abortion doctors do not seek individual publicity.

Your rape example is really warped. Who in your mind is the rapist and who is the victim? I would see Jones as the rapist that set up revenge violence for his action of raping the beliefs of other children of God. I’ve given you the verses where a true Christian isn’t to rape other beliefs.

Civil rights workers did provoke the klan. But they knowingly did it for an expressed greater good. Jones had no greater good. Nothing happened that would improve the world and he wasn’t attempting to make any changes that would improve the world.

Abortion clinic doctors do provoke doctor killing psychopaths. They do it for what they see as a greater good. Since the “christians?” of the US will not give the young women Hope or Love, they serve to restore hope in the women’s lives. The doctors would see giving hope where there is no hope as an expressed greater good. Jones had no greater good in mind. Even you said it was nothing more than an individual ego trip. Abortion doctors do not seek individual publicity.

Your rape example is really warped. Who in your mind is the rapist and who is the victim? I would see Jones as the rapist that set up revenge violence for his action of raping the beliefs of other children of God. I’ve given you the verses where a true Christian isn’t to rape other beliefs.

Some here are proposing “turning the other cheek” when Islam strikes…sorry, friends, when Islam beheads one, there will be no other cheek to offer to the Islamic believer acting out, the head with its two cheeks are fallen to the ground and stepped on by the Islamic believer, who most probably is chanting his bloody Allahu-Akbar. Some complain over our liberal, democratic armies’ presence and bombings during fights against Islamic Imperialism – to them I say, please review your WW II and past 32 years of attacks on our liberal democracies, and you should find ample evidence and secular, liberal reason to engage both on a civilian, judicial, diplomatic and military level to defeat Nazi axis totalitarian ally Islamic Imperialism.

We had a damn good reason for invading Afghanistan.
And we were TOLD we had one for invading Iraq.
Would you rather we have just remotely bombed them to the stone age? Because we can do that.

Yeah, those sluts! They deserve it for dressing in those short skirts! Stupid sluts!
THAT is what you are saying. That somehow, it’s not the fault of the psychopaths, it’s the fault of the people who, using their free speech rights, provoke them.

What’s wrong with an ego trip, Good Life?
And you ACTUALLY think abortion doctors do it “for the good of the women”?
Get fucking real, they do it for the money.
Hey guys, Good Life just endorsed shooting abortion doctors! It’s THEIR fault! Also, those Klansmen that killed civil rights workers! Let ’em go! It’s those damn darkies! They MADE the poor innocent Klansmen do it! Good Life says so!
This is fun! Now, NO ONE has to be responsible for their actions! We can all blame each other!

Jones did not take a gun, put it to the head of the arrogant little children, and make them riot.
He burned a book.
He did not get on TV and tell them to riot.
He burned a book.
The arrogant little children chose to watch him burn the book.
They chose to care, rather than brush it off like real men.
They chose to riot.
They chose to kill.
Not Jones, not the media, just them.

You miss take me, Geoff.
I am not a racist. I can simply see when people are acting like children(Hallmark of criminal behavior).

You’re not even reading what I say. And your rape example fits in no way. It has nothing to do with the victim’s actions. What I said is if someone knows a psychopathic sex offender and that someone encourages that sex offender to rape a woman the sex offender is guilty but so is the person that encourages the rape. The victim is just a victim…The victim is NEVER at fault.

So let me change it a little.

If someone hires a hit man to kill for him, is just the killer at fault or is the person who hired him also at fault.

What’s wrong with an ego trip??? Mat 23:5-13 Luke 14:8-11

A Christian minister should know this.

I never said that the people that do the deed should get off free. You cannot find where I ever advocated that.

What I have always said is the person that provokes the evil is also guilty. Making the provoker guilty doesn’t relieve the guilt of the doer. As in the example above where someone hires a hit man to kill. The person pulling the trigger is guilty, but so is the person that hired him.

ALL are responsible for their actions. ALL have blame.

Translation: I am going to ignore logic, because I would rather criticize my enemies than admit the truth.
You’re pathetic.

He knew he was promoting violence for no reason. You won’t only be asked about the evil you do, but also the evil you could have prevented and certainly the evil you insight.

In my mind, both the book burning and the riots are pointless, idiotic acts. There is no side in this that can be called ‘correct.’

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