Spirited Discussion on this Gary McCoy Abortion Cartoon

I Twittered about this provocative abortion cartoon and got such a discussion on my Facebook page that I decided to post it here for comment.  Frankly, it seems to me that if pro-lifers really believed their own hot-headed rhetoric, that “abortion is murder,” we’d see many more desperate, violent responses, like the killing of this doctor.

Gary McCoy is our resident, knuckle-dragging conservative pro-lifer.  I’ll be interested to see the comments on this cartoon.  We got a crazy number of responses some years ago to a Michael Ramirez cartoon depicting a fetus in an electric chair.  I can always count on abortion, the Confederate Battle Flag, gun control and cartoons about Jews and Islam to bring on the most emotional, angry response.

Cartoon by Gary McCoy, our knuckle-dragging conservative, pro-life cartoonist at Cagle Cartoons.

By Daryl Cagle

Daryl Cagle is the founder and owner of Cagle Cartoons, Inc. He is one of the most widely published editorial cartoonists and is also the editor of The Cagle Post.

191 replies on “Spirited Discussion on this Gary McCoy Abortion Cartoon”

Abortion has been legal for over 30 years, and most people want it to stay that way.

This cartoonist is coming very close to justifying Dr. TIller's murder. As Lori said above, he is comparing aborted fetuses (legal) and murder (still not legal).

Just dumb.

Tiller was murdered.

Pro-life extremists have murdered four doctors.

Politics by violence is terrorism.

Right-wing TV like O'Reilly on FOX should own their incitement of violence on abortion doctors.

I could care less about Gary McCoy.

Well, this cartoon makes a point.

Was Tiller's murder right? No. Is abortion right? No.

I'm saddened about the murder, and living in Wichita it's all I hear about, TRUST me, but it seems that the Tiller murder can be thrown in with the tens of thousands aborted fetuses who were also murdered.

Abortion has cost the lives of millions of people. Unfortunately, some of those lives are practicing doctors. It's not right for someone to be murdered due to their work, but this cartoon makes an excellent point.

You must realize that 95% of the pro-life movement do NOT agree with that website.

The biggest problem with the abortion debate is that both sides appeal to emotions. When you appeal to people's emotions, you can set off an unstable person and they can do something crazy… like drive to a church and shoot a doctor. I didn't agree with Tiller, but I don't agree with his murder, either. It's not our place to try to take justice into our own hands.

The reason you DON'T see more violent reactions is that Christians are forbidden to murder people!

As to the thought that we are, "…trying to shove…ideology down other's throats", where did you come up with the 'ideology' that murder is wrong? I believe it is wrong, but why do you? If it is because taking human life is wrong, then abortion is wrong (no longer illegal, but wrong). If it is because there is a law against murder…well there were 50 laws against abortion in this country…until 1972. I am not trying to shove my ideology down your throat; I am trying to show you that millions (yes millions!) of people have been killed before they ever got a chance to breathe the free air that you breathe in this country. Why? What did they do to deserve such a fate?

Jay, Scott Roeder is not a lone gunman. He is part of Operation Rescue that believes in using lethal violence against doctors who are acting within the law. Cheryl in Operation Rescue bombed a clinic in Caifornia a few years back. Scott had her name and phone number written on a piece of paper in his car. There is no righteousness is killing doctors who give legal abortion procedures to women. Why don't these wack jobs finance orphanages and pay-off pregnant women to have their babies and give them to the orphanage?

I'm just wondering how to interpret the crosses on all the tombstones. Only Christians have abortions? McCoy believes in retroactive conversion of non-Christians, like the Mormons used to? (or still do?)

A false premise makes this cartoon a lie. This cartoon suggests that all abortions are "babies", which they are NOT. While you may *believe* that life begins at conception, it is only a belief that cannot be proven. The people the reich-wing blows up, shoots, kills, etc. ARE victims of murder.

And Jay-El, good point.

Get a grip. I would love to see where the anti-choice crowd here gets their absurd numbers. MILLIONS of nine month old babies "murdered"? Since 1972? I'm supposed to believe that over 5,000 ninth month terminations are performed every month?

Funny thing: only Christian symbols appear on the tombstones. Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, atheists, etc. must not exist in McCoy's limited universe.

How are unborn fetuses christian? Shouldn't they have the right to choose instead of having their religion determined prenatally? I think statistics would find that most abortions are given to christian women (if only because more women identify as christian than "other") and therefor Robert Coutinho's statement "The reason you DON’T see more violent reactions is that Christians are forbidden to murder people!" is self defeating. I think we all know that even the most devout pro-lifers still cherish the lives of those already born over those not. If a pro-lifer's daughter got an abortion, there would be tension, but not as much as if she killed her 3 month old baby. Let's stop the act and just be honest.

I question what Daryl you mean when you say "If prolifers believed their own hot headed rhetoric, that there would be more murders". Since we do believe our "rhetoric", there isn't violence (with exceptions)
But I am missing your point? We BELIEVE in life, and taking it, at any time is WRONG. So that is
consistent. Any loss of life is tragic, and Dr Tiller's murder is tragic, but the way I see it, the person pulling the trigger "does not believe the rhetoric", ie life is sacred. It was one murderer murdering another murderer. This person no more speaks for Pro-lifers than Hitler spoke for Catholics!
God bless our Nation, and all those born and unborn

The cartoon is chilling as one who believes abortion is murder. But I don't think taking another man's life is the the answer. It is a sad commentary on our society, when the only response from the pro-choice community is, that "it is legal". Being legal doesn't make it moral.

I am surprised that you would expect to "see many more desperate, violent responses, like the killing of this doctor." Pro-life is not anti-abortion, it is pro-life in all of its forms. It is exactly because pro-lifers believe whole-heartedly in their "rhetoric" that the act of killing to make their point is at its core abhorent. How disappointing that your mentality is so misguided as to think this position is a "knuckle dragging" one. My understanding of evolution is that killing to achieve dominance was the caveman way. The pro-life movement has by and large born restrained witness for decades to the truth that a fetus is a living being genetically distinct from the mother's womb in which it is domiciled. We patiently wait for the day when the arrogance of man no longer defines life as beginning at the ever-changing horizon at which man can sustain the life of a child outside of the womb.

Although this is a heated debate we must look at our present trends with some thoughts on it's double standards…

It's the growing reality in most states that a person charged with murder a woman who is pregnant, is being charged for double murder of the mother and the unborn child.

So which is it? IF murding a woman who is pregnant makes the child viable then why are not the children of abortion?? And NO not in all cases has the woman been showing (not that that should matter)

If this becomes the norm… then how does that affect Roe Vs Wade???
Just food for thought…

Ted: Can I assume you also protest the wars in the Middle East? Or are you one of the overwhelming majority of pro-lifers that applaud every bomb dropped on Iraq and Afghanistan? I fail to believe your statement "We BELIEVE in life, and taking it, at any time is WRONG." I will believe YOU feel that way…but "we" as in pro-lifers are usually not of that opinion.

The 9 year old child in Italy that was molested and raped by stepfather was traumatized possibly beyond recovery. She has a life sentence. To try to force that child to carry the fetus to term would extremely further her emotional trauma, mental stabilty etc.. What if it were your child? Late term abortions are only performed when the mothers life is in danger and or the fetus's life is in danger. What if it were your's, your wife's, your daughter's life in danger? Abortion is not performed as birth control where a woman can have one many times. It is not an unregulated procedure. There is strict critera that has to be met prior to the procedure. There are very few doctors and facilities that even perform them.

No one in the Pro Life movement considers issues like over population.

IF we have every single child, we will kill each other over resources…

No one in the Pro life movement considers rape or incest or retardation.

Bottom line: It's the mother's choice, not anyone else's, PERIOD.

So long as no one holds a gun to my head and forces me to abort a baby, why should anyone care whether I have an abortion or not?

This is in the same spirit as Gay Marriage. Why should someone else's relationship affect my marriage that we need referenda on Same-sex marriage being labelled as "Saving Marriage"? My marriage is safe, thank you – same sex marriage being legal or not!


mccreep was, is and will ALWAYS be an asshole.
What more could you expect from someone who dreams of performing oral sex on cheney & cheney's puppet?

It hates women and has the attitude that women are 2nd class in all respects.
A thing like that has deep seated insecurities.

Also, how could mccreep be against abortion?
It's mother named hers gary.

Just a few comments on the comments, as I don't believe there will be significant (if any) intelligent comments over the cartoon itself (kudos to Stephen, though).
Lori – "Last I checked abortion was still legal." – true, with conditions. Many of the procedures Tiller performed were not.
EJA – "Abortion has been legal for over 30 years, and most people want it to stay that way." Not true. As of this year the country has been recorded 52% pro-life. Although I suspect this incident may swing it back the other way.
MarkO, Jay-El, et al. – have you ever seen a Bhuddist abortion plot? They look very similar to the cartoon, except that the markers have little aprons on them.

I'll fight to the death a person's right to free speech, no matter how I feel about it. I do have a problem with the image, though: his presumption that all those fetuses are Xian. Other religions (including mine) don't have the same opinions regarding abortion, which makes this a case of his 1st Amendment trying to step on mine. And that, in the end does it for me. Women should have the right to choose because their opinion of what counts as a life is predicated on their religious beliefs, the same beliefs these folks rely on to form their opinions — and commit violence and murder in the name of their god. (Who, if real, alive and corporeal, would be shaking her head at all this idiocy.)

Brian: It's really quite simple. If the mother intends to, or has yet to make her decision to, bring the fetus to term she and her fetus should get all the protections the law can provide. But should that mother decide to terminate it's no longer anyone's business because a woman has the right to choose. She's given that right by the very fact she is the one that carries, nurtures, and gives birth. It's not up to me, or you, or some church.

And to Doug, funny then how so many "pro-life" people are also "pro-death penalty" and "pro-war" and "anti-gun control".

Based on his views, Gary McCoy is a stone-cold anti-Semite. And a liar when it comes to the Hebrew Bible.
Here's why:

The only cogent scriptural text is the one in Exodus 21, which recounts an incident when a pregnant woman, caught in the middle of a fight between two men, is struck and miscarries. The culprit pays a monetary fine for his action: if the fetus were considered a full human being, he would have been charged with (involuntary) murder (and if the fetus were worthless, he would get off only with punishment for striking the woman).

(The stray comment in Jeremiah which is often cited in this controversy is poetry, and thus unactionable hyperbole. For the Hebrew Bible, only legislative material is deemed authoritative, i.e., prescriptive for righteous behavior.)

In short, the Hebrew Bible takes a "middle view" on this matter, which is the position upheld by Jewish tradition: the fetus is 'something' but not a full human being. It has property value and potential as life; but, in and of itself, is not life. And thus, abortion is not murder- it is, at best, a tort issue.

(Indeed, in Jewish law, when the mother's life is medically at stake, abortion is not merely allowed, but actually REQUIRED.)

I would argue that the MAJORITY of Americans, pragmatic as ever, prefer something more along the lines of such a nuanced 'middle view' !!

Part of Christianity's problem arose when the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Bible) misunderstood the Exodus material, and, in translating it, mangled it. This misreading was then picked up in the Vulgate (Latin translation of the Bible), which is the text that is doctrinally binding for Catholics- not the original Hebrew spoken by God.

VERY good point Brian… I think we need to realize the fact that "a person charged with murder a woman who is pregnant, is being charged for double murder of the mother and the unborn child" is simply a product of our insatiable desire to lock people away for greater amounts of time. Why is killing a woman that is pregnant worse than killing a non-pregnant woman? Or man, for that matter? If murder is supposed to be the worst thing, why should there be differences? I still feel that a person who shoots a pregnant woman would serve less time than if he killed a woman and her young child. Like it or not we are wired to realize that an unborn fetus is not equal to a child.

So Mc Coy is appaled at babies aborted by a female, who realizez she will not be able to feed and care for the featus she is carrying, and considers this murder. But it is okay for a newborn baby to be put in a box and left by the roadside or tossed in a trash dumpster? Or for an infant to be beaten and shaken until every bone in their body is broken?
The brains of pro-lifers seem somewhat twisted to say the least.

Those who say abortion is legal and murder is not are correct. I oppose abortion but I most certainly do not believe in killing abortion docs and my heart goes out to the Tiller family. McCoy's cartoon simply reveals the irony that *all* life (even life in the womb) is not a precious commodity, that's all. Tiller's life was precious too and it was not up to man to take it from him.

CORRECTION: My appologies for rushing in writing my blog comment. The fetus's survival % is very small not life in danger. Some fetus's of late term abortions are severly deformed and from a very throrough medical evalution deemed no survival, to a very small percentage of survival.

So Jay…are you saying that ALL Moslems that condone violence or offer support to those who commit violence in the name of Islam should suffer the same ultimate fate as the terrorists themselves? It is an interesting thought. At what point do beliefs and financial or physical support become aiding and abetting? At what point is the support as bad as the commission of the act?
War was a lot easier to fight when you could say that everyone on the other side of a line was the enemy. During WWII, we had no problem fire-bombing Dresden or Tokyo because they were enemy cities that supported our opponents' armies with war material, but now we are squeamish when a few women and children happen to get killed because they happen to be in the same room when a score of Islamic militants are taken out by a smart bomb in their meeting place.
When is a mullah or an ayatollah or a Bin Laden or an evangelist minister or a talk show host guilty of the resulting violence when they inflame those who will commit the violence? I would say as soon as they open their mouths to spew hate and prod others to do their dirty work for them, they are as guilty as the perpetrator.

Where did those "good" christians get the idea that they are in charge of the universe? As I get older, I have more respect for the words of Jesus, and less respect for the words of any Christian who purports to know the truth. In fact, the cruelest people I know are those who call themselves Christians. And how many children has this Gary McCoy adopted? Religion to me is about dealing with reality, not ruling it. And as long as we have sex we will have babies, who can say who should raise them? A raped ten year old? Besides, it seems to me. that those aborted foetuses might have suffered more had they bee born, maimed or to tragically maimed parents. No one should judge another until they have walked a mile…

Where is the assumption that all the fetuses are christian? Please, people, it's called SYMBOLOSM! Look it up. A cross on a rounded stone is simply a long-standing, easy-to-recognize representation of a tombstone.
Look, all the cartoonist is trying to say is that he finds it ironic that one murder gets a media frenzy when placed against millions of other – as he considers them – murders.
Please stop trying to read your own social/political/religious slurs into it.

"Christians need to back down on this issue, and stop trying to shove your hypocritical ideology down other\’s throats."

And yet we just need to sit back, relax and learn to enjoy the anal rape that is Global Warmism by those hypocrits. No, I don't remember separation of church and state as it's a fantasy dreamed up by the arrogant. As far as infanticide still being legal, so is suicide but that doesn't make it a great idea.

Up until very modern medicine the percentage of women dying in child birth was very very high. It has been extemely reduced and this is one of the medical procedures/treatments that has significantly reduced the percentage of women dying in child birth.

This is a nice cartoon that effectively demonstrates the hypocrisy of abortionists and their apologists.

And more than anything, each and every woman has the right to decide what is best for her and her body. She does not need a committee of men to tell her what is the right thing to do.

TGC: Please try to make your thoughts coherent enough that we may all follow along easily. I'm glad to see you don't believe in science just like I don't believe in your god. Please feel free to pray next time you get the flu and don't bother your doctor… I'll go to my doctor and I promise I won't bother your god. Deal?

It is absurd to equate the killing of a doctor who is performing a necessary and legal service to women in deperate circumstances with the termination of a pregnancy, even those that are late-term. It is sheer nonsense to claim that late-term abortions are performed for the convenience of the mother. Most late-term abortions are for medical reasons, such as severe fetal deformity, or for the mother's life or health! In most cases, the woman either wanted the child or at least was resigned to going through with it. If they had wanted an abortion for other than medical reasons at that late stage, it would not be allowed in most states. Late-term abortions are not for convenience; they are required to be for medical necessity.

This discussion is heated, because its one thing to choose abortion, but to choose it out of convenience and to kill a fetus in the 2 or third trimester is just too hard or to understand. Also, I am Pro Life, but not just when it comes to abortion, we also have to look at life after birth. Politicians are guilty of making this issue only for political gains and nothign else, which fosters even more hate.
If this issue had not been turned into a political weapon, no one would be up in arms over it.

Ultimately the choice as to be between Doctor and Patient not the government or crazy people on the right..

Here they go again! Why is it whenever there's a Democrat in the White House these so called "pro-lifers" come out of the closet? They certainly aren't in an uproar about their own "pro-life conservative" Republican Presidents refusing to ban abortion during the past 20 of 28 years when they ruled. Now that there's a Democrat in the White House suddenly they show their phoney concern for "dead babies?" I think not. Common sense says this "abortion issue" has little to do with saving babies.

Daryl – I can always count on liberals to resort to insults about those who don't agree with them. Also, about your comment on more attacks like the one on dr. death Tiller, didja notice that by and large we don't do things like that? Seems most pro-lifers have this thing where we don't like killing… Too bad about Tiller, huh? Poor, defenseless person, just standing there, minding his own business when someone comes up and kills him…
It's a safe bet that you've never held the remains of an aborted baby (neither have I, my excuse is have children and I love them). Too bad – At six weeks, slightly larger than a peanut, they're little bodies are fully developed, only the lungs have yet to be ready – this is when most abortions are performed.
4000 a day, butthead… That's progress!

Bill: Did you really just criticize Daryl for name calling and then use the term "Dr. Death" in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE??? A larger hypocrite there is none, sir…

Christian or any religion has religious doctrine( law). We are at war with many countries religious extremists who demand their religious law rule the world. The world has and will always have evil in it as evil is in the mind of mankind. Religion is a "personal /private" CHOICE as God gave us CHOICE which is in the bible if it were truley studied and learned. Not just passages picked and interpreted out to use against others. Mans law is not religious doctrine. The 1st admendment states: The federal government shall not establish any given religion within it. learn and teach children to avoid temptation not force all people to live and believe as one religion dictates.

I've been badgering Gary McCoy and his cousin, Gary Varvel, for years.

Both hustle for the patriarchy. (Pope-pa knows best.)
Someone else tells them what to think.
One cannot bargain in good faith with surrogates.

They see that their time is passing and desperately want all to share their fears.
But most of us will not be sorry to see the patriarchy rendered to its proper place
of providing mechanical advice to the Goddess.

Personal note:
McCoy answers his emails honorably.
Varvel feeds his emails to his flock of rabid geese.
Neither is as vile as Eric Allie

I understand Obama will be visiting the Normandy gravesites in a few days. A similar cartoon, maybe?
Nice work, Gary McCoy

The abortions performed by the clinic are presumed to have been legal. The murder of the performing physicin was not. Sorry kiddies, prenatal and postnatal abortion have been practiced by us apes for thousands of years. It was a common practice by the free lov’en ancient Greeks and Romans and is still practiced by so called primitive cultures when food supplies are critical. So bite your tongues you anti guys and face up to it, abortions will happen, whether allowed by law or not. The only alternative is contraception, which most anti guys are also against. Strangely, the anti guys also don’t want to feed, cloth, or educate the unwanted or discarded. They preach abstinence as the solution—really. Not even eunuchs or RC priests practice abstinence. The only realistic alternatives are, prevent, abort, or support.

I checked out anti-abortion websites to get abortion statistics, and GUESS WHAT, ABORTIONS INCREASE UNDER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS!!!!!! These people are just such HYPOCRITES!!! They reduce access to BIRTH CONTROL, which is the only thing that truly REDUCES ABORTIONS!!! They want to keep this issue for RECRUITMENT…..the last thing they want is for Roe vs. Wade to get overturned, because then Pro-Choicers would FAR OUTNUMBER the Anti-Choice.

Abortion is still legal, murder is not. We have no right to play God, it is so unbecoming in all of us. Pro-lifers believe that life begins at conception and I believe that life begins when the fetus can live on its own. Whatever the belief, it is yours, mine and ours to believe what we want. I don't tell you how to live your life, you don't tell me how to live mine. What we do not need, ever again, is to have our women go to back alley ways and dark, dirty rooms. If you don't want to have an unwanted pregnancy, take the pill or put a raincoat on it!!!

As Neil said; "Politics by violence is terrorism.".

So is someone like Donald Spitz really any different than Osama Bin-Laden?

Melody is correct, Abortion is a medical proceedure to correct a problem for a female patient who's life is in danger. It used to be unavailable in certain States altogeather. The availability of birth control devices and medicines today should make abortion obsolete as a birth control device. I have no problem with making birth control medicines and devices available to everyone, it is an investment in abortion prevention. I read somewhere that in Japan, if you give birth to an "unwanted baby" you can just turn it in and the accepting "clinic" will find a home for the baby. I think fear fires the abortion search, fear of poverty, social expulsion, parental fury, divorce, etc. If we could be a little more empathetic to the frailties of each other perhaps we could return to being the Christian nation Obama thinks we have abandoned.

I appreciate that late term abortion is a very sensitive subject. However, it is legal to perform them at this time. Murder on the other hand is against the law. The line between the two morally may be blurry but legally it is very clear. President Obama talks about America being a nation of laws. We need to get back to that philosophy after 8 years of an administration that played fast and loose with the law. There is a possibility that the fanatics who celebrate this murder may be celebrating too soon. We all need to wait and see the backlash to a murder in a church. If this murder was committed by a "Christian" the fact that it was done in a church may not put him on the fast track to heaven.

Most societies condone the killing of another human in some circumstances. For us it is reserved for those who are convicted of the most heinous murders or treason and who show no chance of rehabilitation. For other countries it may be theft, insulting a holy book, or a woman showing too much of her body. We as a society have condoned the killing of unborn humans, just as others condon the killing of infants and "rebellious" children. Of course, in the words of our President, who are we to impose our standards on other civilizations?

The Tiller killing was murder by our standards. It was also morally reprehensible. "Freedom of Choice" killing of an unborn human abortion is not, despite how morally reprehensible it is. The interesting question is, if homosexuality is in fact found to be genetic, and a fetal test is developed to detect it, where will the liberal pro-choicers be on abortion on demand based solely on anticipated sexual preference?

When society improves and expands birth control education, make it important that men and women are held responsible for carrying out their individual birth control methods, and the law remains that a woman's right includes control over her body, the need for abortions will not decrease. As a society, we don't really care about the children we have now, who we know are real people, but few do anything to help improve their lives. From the monotheistic point of view, if I remember correctly, morality covers birth to death, right?

I certainly support the rights of free speech,even( or especially ) of those I don't agree with. This cartoon (? ) is very close to cryiing Fire in a crowded threater.
I am personally opposed to abortion, however I support a woman's right to choose.
I support our president's position on this matter. Only thru education will we ever reduce the number of abortions. We cannot legislate out abortion any more than we legilated out alcahol .

dear paseodelnorte — My mind had not even made it to that thought — it is truely frightening to contemplate what would happen under those circumstances. This radical group already wants to stop the use of birth control – in any form. If there is a "gay gene" will abortion be more appealing or will genetic altering be their major argument? It becomes very 1984 ish —

Our laws allow abortion, but that doesn't make it right. I don't know about millions of fetuses murdered at 9 months, but millions of fetuses have been murdered since 1973. This preterm infanticide does not justify murdering abortionists though.

And as for there only being Christian symbols on the tombstones, if you ask Gary he'll probably tell you crosses are a lot quicker to draw then crescents and stars.

Advocate right to life by committing murder?

That will bring abortionists them around!

Just what we're needing…another holy war!



Please, just make the death of each child/fetus a front page story as they have with the Dr., after a few weeks we'd see how many, including Obama are outraged.

In China, women are required to use implanted birth control from age 13 until age 21- and then they must pass rigid tests, parenting classes and a physical before they can have kids- not such a bad idea, considering the fact that in the US, dogs and cats and wild animals make better parents then a growing number of abusive humans. Why not go with prevention? Isn't it far better ( mentally and physically) not to have fertilization take place at all?

I feel that if a person is really Right-To-Life that means every life. Not just the unborn.
And I feel that a true Right-To-Life'r should condemn the taking of the doctor's life as they condemn the taking of the life of the unborn.
And I am for the most part a liberal Democrat and I belive in Right-To-Life. For all.

Putting forth a great effort to learn christianity, one sees that Jesus taught with love. The only time he was recorded to become angry was in the temple overthrowing the money changers tables. He walked among the night people not berating them, not trying to force them to believe as he did but, to lovingly plant seeds in the mind of those who saw in him a peace that they desired to obtain. He allowed people to live as they chose. He taught to avoid temptaion not to try rid the world of sin as mankind will never be rid of sin. He didn't seek to rule the world just to be an example that people will see it in him and desire it and he could lead them to finding it. It is up to the individual to put forth great effort to leanr it, apply it within, and if others see it and want it to lead them to it. He didn't make people feel bad and want to run away from him and his beliefs as many do today. Wether others are gay, have an abortion, or whatever it is their choice.

East texasredneck read history …Hitler opposed abortions … the women were put in forced labor camp and the Dr was killed. If anyone in here is a Nazi it is you people . I don't question your patriotism just your intellegence

Yes, it's absolutely wrong to murder such a doctor, but it amazes me that pro-abortion backers cannot/will not see where the sane, non-violent pro-lifers are coming from. As Lori said, "The outright homicide of a living, viable human being…is not (legal)". To a pro-lifer, abortion IS the outright homicide of a living, viable human being. The pro-abortion stance denies the hope for the unborn to finish delopment and grow to be a productive member of society. It says there is no hope for a mother if she keeps her unwanted baby.

I personally know two women who were advised by their doctors to abort their child, one due to her medical condition and the other, because she was raped. Both kept their baby. Each child has grown to be beautiful, talented adults who contribute much to their family and community.

It also amazes me that the president, whose campaign slogan was "Hope", doesn't see that aborting a human being–whether unborn, born, aged, you name it–is the ultimate in hopelessness.

IF the basic tenet of pro-life movement is that life is sacred, that MUST extend to an abortion doctor's life also. Otherwise the entire argument reduces to a relative consideration of which life is expendable. If a life can be considered expendable from one point of view, the movement's entire raison d'etre becomes invalid and their position lacks merit.

I am neither pro-life nor pro-abortion. I am pro "keep your nose out of other people's business". I don't see millions of women rushing out to get pregnant, just so that they can have an abortion. I feel certain that many of these are the result of exhausted soul-searching. REPEAT to bible-thumpers and other nosy people. Clean up your own house and stay out of others.

There is always a DEATH with an abortion, sometimes more than one. That one death represents a small unborn, BABY and not just an item to be thrown away.

There are options, and abortion should not be used to replace birth control, self control, or immaturity. These defenseless babies need a voice and the cartoon says volumes.

The killing of an abortion doctor is wrong, but think of the numbers of babies that had their brains sucked from their heads prior to delivery, so that they would expire and be removed, only to be placed in the trash.

This has to stop!

To me fighting and killing in war in the name of God ( holy war) is a sin. God didn't tell us to dominate or kill others who believe differently from us. Murder is murder. Denying a woman the right to live by a medical procedure is murder. I believe the decision is the womans to make and live with no one elses. Denying a teen the right to minimal emotional and future emotional trauma is up to the teen and her parents. The moring after pill which thwarts the egg from being fertilized is a great developement for many teens afraid to tell their parents, especially those who demand abstinance only. Teens are full of hormones and emotions which lead to promiscuity. Teen pregnancy is lower in recent times as many teens parents have common sense, the rationale, and understanding of teenagers. Many whose parents are staunch advocates of abstinence use some form of contraceptive without parents knowlege. It is primarily the poor who suffer teen and adult unwanted pregnancies.

Thank You Melody…. Jesus also said " Suffer the little children to come unto me". As a spiritual person raised a Christian. I love Jesuses beautitudes, he condemed no one but loved us all. that is why I no longer call myself a Christian. todays Christian no more follows the teachings of Christ ( with very few exceptions) than I do pro -hockey( no offense to hockey fans and utmost offence to psuedo-christians)

JC and it was the womens choice to keep the baby wasn't it. I love your pro-abortion code word, but pro-choice is more approporiate. Is your nome de guerre Pro Life or Pro -Lie

I see the point of the cartoon, and I found the juxtaposition of values to be interesting and enlightening. And not just a little shameful. I don't care what religious symbol is on the headstones. Just think of it as God's ownership of those children from the pen of a man who used a symbol that was meaningful to him. Don't look for reasons to be offended here. This is such a hot topic anyway. But I would like to address a couple of things I found here.

1) The contention that those who are against abortion never think about larger issues than"killing Bambi's mom". We do think about population growth. We do think about medical reasons, and physical assault and all those factors. We just feel that as a society, the devaluing of human life is not a step in the right direction. And, for the record, retardation is not a sufficient reason to kill someone.

2) To say in any way that abortion is not used as a form of birth control is a patent, BLATANT falsehood. Now I personally feel that the majority of abortions are medically unecessary. This issue is not about a woman's right to choose. If it were, equity would demand that men be given that same right and be able to refuse participation in a child's life if the woman decided to keep her child. Or a man would have to have legal standing to make a woman not abort his child if he wanted to keep it. This is not about rights. This is about RESPONSIBILITY. Pregnancy is a consequence, not an action. As such, abortion is not a right. It is an avoidance mechanism. There are three reasonable exceptions to this. In the case of rape or incest, pregnancy was not the result of your choice, and it is wrong to force someone to bear the consequences of another's choice. Also, if something is going to kill you , I think you should have the right to decline participation. Other than that, abortion is just a woman not wanting to face the consequences of her own choices. And she almost inevitably feels worse for it, because it never really works. That child is there with her, everyday anyway.

3) The insistence that this is merely a legal issue. It certainly has legal components, and I agree that one action is legal and the other isn't. But that conveniently removes whether the legal action is MORAL, or even ETHICAL. The fact of the matter is, we don't know when life begins. We don't even know WHAT life is. For all we know, the unborn ARE alive. The viability argument isn't as strong as it used to be, because medical technology has advanced to thepoint that there are a lot of people in the world today who aren't viable on their own. They have to have medical intervention just to keep breathing. But no one begrudges them that, do they? And, after all, isn't pregnancy just a really cool, organic form of life support?

You're still missing it, Billy. Don't discard the lives of the children I mentioned w/ a snappy comeback. The point is that these women saw that the baby growing inside them had potential and worth.

If you equate abortion with murder then you are stupid. Abortion is legal. Murder is not legal!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody is against killing. What they are against is who does the killing. Sort of like, women do the dishes thing everyday and men mow the lawn once a week. In human socieety, women are the birth givers and men take care of the killings. To go out of your sphere of action is what all the hoopla is about. \\"My goodness, if women participate in the killing, will if they refuse to take care of men someday?\\"

Alas, women\\\'s work (birthing) is never done. But then again, neither is men\\\'s work (the killings).

People are aghast when a mother muders her childten but when a man does it, we just shrug our shoulders and say, \\"boys will be boys\\". Shucks.

This "debate" is woefully inadequate. Almost nowhere is the point made that late-term abortions almost exclusively occur because the fetus is bodily missing life sustaining organs and the mother's life is at a very high risk for survival! The courage and humanity represented in the life Dr. Tiller exemplifed is totally obscured by the ignorance,rampant emotionalism and mystic irrationality of too many misinformed respondents posted here. Self-sustaining, viable life begins at birth. and not before.

Does anyone know what a late term abortion is? It is where the mother''s life is in grave danger or the fetus is not viable. Contitions such as having the baby's brain growing outside the baby's skull, which would mean that if the child lived, then it would be in agony for the few hours or days that it might live that it would be inhumane to bring it into this world. All late term abortions are discussed and decided upon by a panel of doctors, it is not litely taken.The doctor did not "kill babies for $5,000" as Fox news(hic) said, he also delivered babies and was an doctor who cared for his clients well being and their lives as well as the lives of the babies. He also supported and encouraged adoption, something many of you right wing religious wacko's do not support or care about promoting on a national baisis, gee it would stop some abortions. Also the religious wacks who do not support any type of birth control and fight it like Bush did, are complicit in all of the cemetary headstone's depicted in the cartoon, yes you! Something as simple as a condom, spermicide, or the pill could stop potentially hundreds of thousands of abortions, but no there is something about enjoying and relishing a healthy sex life with your mate and choosing when to have a child that you don't understand.
A cartoon like this or someone like O'Riely on FOX who routinely railed against the doctor and told people that he would basically get his, or suprised him with reporters,let people know where he worked were almost as complicit in the doctor's death as anyone could be. With all the wack jobs out there especially some of the fringe people in the pro life movement and wack jobs in general, it wasn't hard to hear of the doctor's death, it was inevitable and they helped cause it.
Being a pro life advocate must mean that you cherish life and you should be against the death penalty and murder or death of any kind, that is if you were consistent. Most seem to lightly condone the murder of the doctor. You are kind of like a terrorists where you condone death when it is expedient or supports your way, your political or religious views.
If you all worked smart to stop abortions, then there would be fewer and fewer each year. That means supporting birth control for consenting adults and minors who have gone astray and are sexually active before marriage, yes it does happen. Just saying no is not working, ask Sarah Palin's daughter. Promoting adoption of all races of children, not just little white babies. Making sure that the adoption process becomes easier and less expensive for prospective parents and helping the mother to get good medical care and good food would assure prospective parents of a healthy child. What about a movement to do all that, all the people protesting abortion could help out with adoption or birth control and abortion becomes less and less of a choice for a frightened young, poor and bedwildered mother.

No JC the point is they had a choice. Would Moma feel the same way if Junior grew up and killed a doctor because of a rabid caustic mentality of hate toward anyone who has a different veiw point. JC I hate no one, but I don't want you trying to lead my life for me. I personally would never have an abortion, if my daughter considered it her only alternative I would take her to the clinic myself. It is the main variable in this whole deal that you people conveniently forget. To have or not to have is a legal choice , my choice , her choice and yes even your choice, but that is the cruxt of it is, it's everyones choice, not yours alone to apply to everyone. So get a life , lead it and stay out of everyone elses. Worry about your babies and keep your sanctiminious and disengenious attitude to yourself. If you want to do something constructive for children help feed the living.

I see a lot of folks commenting that pro-life believers are trying to cram their religion down the throat of others. Since when is LIFE a religious issue. Docotrs, scientist and otherenlightened individuals know that life begins at conception. Isn't heart-beat a sign of life? Are brain-dead morons still not living? Abortion kills a beating heart, that makes abortion murder, no matter how many 'laws' allow it. When the Mayan culture offered living humans sacrifice, were not their sacrificed humans dead making that also murder. What will humans in the future call abortion? Will they say, "Oh, those ill-informed people thought it was ok to stop life before the baby took its first poop, they believed life begins at poop." ha-ha, buy a clue, stop saying anyone has a "right to choose" to kill, and then in the same breath denounce the person who kills a killer!

Good Point Werner Simon but getting these people to understand it is like trying to to talk to a brick wall. Their blinders won't let them see the rest of the world just their little misguided path of ignorance and sanctiminious self -rightchoseness. We know best what is right for you. Hypoctites

Bill O'Reilly and the leader of Operation Rescue ought to be placed in a stockade in a public square for inciting murder via their irresponsible inflammatory hate-inducing rhetoric regarding Dr. Tiller. Everyone knows there are mentally unstable, violent, gun-toting nutcases dotting every town and city in this nation, just waiting to be pushed over the edge of reasonable behavior by repeated violence-inducing language put forth publicly to the masses and "true believers", in this case targeting an individual who is not breaking any laws and in actual fact is doing good by saving women's lives. Now McCoy has saved a spot in the stockade for himself for justifying assassination post facto. Has anyone noticed that none of these lone gun-toting reactionary killers are liberals killing conservatives or "Christians" for their beliefs, or gays killing anti-gay haters? In spite of being targeted as evil and hell-bound on a daily basis in the "Christian" brainwashing madrassas dotting the landscape across America? Anyone ever wonder why? Pro-life, my ass. Mentally deranged hypocrites run this movement. Just judging the tree by the fruit it bears. And this one was pretty rotten.

I'm all pro freedom of speech, and if that's Gary Macoy's opinion, well he has the right to publish it wherever he can, but. If I ever saw a cartoon justifying murder – this is it. And I wonder if dear Mr. Macoy realizes that justifying murder makes him just as bad as he claims the poor doctor was, so I want to ask one question: how is he going to defend himself morally when he looks himself in the mirror and realize that his cartoon amounts to the very thing he preaches against?

As has been said repeatedly, abortion is legal. Murdering a Dr. is not. This is the epitome of hypocricy Gary. Personally I believe men should get a say on this issue when they grow a uterus.

I respectfully disagree with you on the message of the cartoon. I don't think he was justifying murder. I think he was pointing out that THIS killing was getting a lot more press than the slayings of the unborn. And if you (not you personally, you in general)believed that the unborn were alive and as such had the right to continue living, then the cartoon makes a very stark statement about what we value as a society.

Billy, AMEN. I usually say I am a follower of Jesus as many gain knowlege and interpret the bible to support their ingrained ( physical world) beliefs that already exist. The knowlege they gleen from it is used against others to force them to live and believe as they want them to ( not as they actually live). A very famous many once said" If I save but one soul I will die knowing that soul was saved." Many are turned away from christianity by over zealous, derogatory, condesending, forceful people.
That said, Obama put in his budget planned parenthood education and contreceptives. It was removed by congress. The right who says all dems/ libs/ left are welfare people sucking the gov dry should use common sense. If we elimenate the prenatal care cost, the birth cost, and medicaid cost to 18 years of age add that up. They are causing the problem yet rail against the people for it.

I'm tired of this discussion. A good man is dead from offering a legal service to his clients. If you in anyway can justify that occurance with the teachings of your God , then all I can say is F&$k you and your God

BTW I am an independant voter. I have agreements and disareements of both parties. I am older also, and find the GOP is sounding and acting very bad since Obama took office.

I don't have the answers but this cartoon raised several questions. Why is there value placed on a child that was never born and zero value on a starving child in Darfur? Do you think God notes a distinction? Why is it people want to legislate a woman's womb but not a man's penis. Aged men, even sex offenders can take Viagra. . . and waste their seed. Does the death of sperm not warrant alarm? How many men have been raped and then had to bear the child? Do we have the right to legislate another person's body? Finally, are we so distinct from the Taliban after all don't they see it as their "God" given right to protect or is that subjugate women? I think perhaps it is best to leave those things that are God's responsibility to God.



there are more stones than full term abortions done each year. I for one as a loving grandfather am an ti-abortion, but am very pro choice. i i have four grandchildren and love them all. but the parent and in some cases the father are the ONLY ones who can say. other than that is vigilante justice.

God this, god that. God be damned. Mark Twain said, "God made man in his own image and ever since then, man has returned the compliment." No god has come to earth and said abortion or murder are good or evil, men (generic) have made these rules. Man made rules help us live in relative peace in close quarters. What a better world this would be if we didn't turn to some false god to support our beliefs and just work for the representatives that mirror our feelings–then accept when the majority rules otherwise. Twain also said, "If there were no god, man would invent one." When asked later in lkife which it is, he responded, "God is an invention." Twain got it right.

Amen Maria… Abortion is just a pretext for our American taliban what they really want is control, over your life and mine and everyones. If I had to choose between a government of elected peers writing the laws that govern my life or a group of self-righteous religious fanatics, I would not hesitate to chose the former over the latter.

All those murdered babies will line up to toss coal, and gas on the fires of hell that will be burning the so-called doctor for eternity.

abortion is murder,but the killing of 600,000 Iraqi's on two separate occasions is not right? Madness.

east texas your drool bucket is full buddy. Hitler got rid of the mentally ill before the jews . Now aren;t you glad you wern't around in germany under Hitler. that would be an abortion retroactively.

Maybe the far out loonies like the nutjob who shot Dr Tiller will now go gunning for Mother Nature, who aborts far more fetuses than any mere human possibly could !!!!!!

Or would that be God who is aborting them……..mmmmm

Killing is killing, pure and simple. Either way. Early, mid-, late-term, or post birth.
I find it amusing that when abortion was first allowed here in the US, it was only allowed in the early first-trimester. Now it is allowed right up to the moments preceding birth. What's next? Retroactive abortion – the killing of unwanted children, or adults?
I think it is wrong to tell a woman what she can or can not do with her own body, and that includes pregnancy.
I think it is equally wrong to kill babies in development. Once the egg is fertilized, it is human. It may even be conscious, and feel pain.
Saying it does not, and calling it by another name does not prove anything, medical establishment not-withstanding. (I remember when those guys thought it was OK to do surgeries on children without anesthesia because, "Children don't feel pain.")
When I see the pro-lifers picketing the Family Planning clinics, I always feel for them, and their angst, but I can't help but think that they are at the wrong end of the supply chain.
What we really NEED is quality, honest, down-to-earth sex education, and forget about all the homo-sexuality stuff. That does not really need to be in there. The kids need to know the facts about how babies are made, and how to avoid making them, beyond celibacy, and maybe the abortion problem will die on its own.
When my kids were still small, I ran a cross a pop-up book for children by Sir Jonathan Miller, "The Facts of Life." I bought it. The kids grew up knowing everything they needed to know. They had no problems.
Human beings are intelligent and caring and do not like to harm anything that lives. If they know how babies are created, they tend to not want to harm any. When they know how babies grow in the womb, they realize that it is wrong to kill them, so they are more likely to avoid making any, in the first place.
That said, it is still wrong to tell a woman what to do with her body, and there can be many circumstances and reasons why she can not bring the baby to birth.
I always told my kids that the world will not end if you have sex before marriage, but there is a good reason why the churches and the wise say to wait – it just works out better that way. I don't know whether they did, and I am not naive enough to believe, but they are all grown now and doing well.
As long as there are people who seek comfort and succor in sexual relationships, and as long as there are people who are ignorant of the true manner of how human beings are created, and how they grow in the womb, the problem will be with us.
I suggest we just relax, do the best we can, and love everyone as much as possible.

Change all the grave stones to read 9/11 Victims and the caption could read: Killed by religious extremists in the name of their God.

Think a minute. America embraced a welfare "reform" agenda that is directly responsible for soaring rates of infant mortality among America's poor. We can consider this state-sponsored (involuntary) abortion. In fact, the infant mortality rate among America's poor now actually surpasses that of some Third World nations. (Beyond this, and in sharp contrast to all the modern nation, our welfare reform has also resulted in a plunging life-expectancy for America's poor, with fewer reaching the age of 60). In direct violation of that UN Declaration of Human Rights that we celebrated back in the 1990's (but that America refused to ratify), we are unique among the modern nations in deciding that people — including babies and children — are NOT entitled to the fundamental, universal human rights of basic housing, food and medical care if they are poor. We see the results of these policies in the significant increase of serious health problems among poor babies and children. How much value do we really place on human life when America decided that the 6% of the federal budget that went into AFDC was more than we could tolerate? America's response to the suffering of the poor –primarily babies and children — has been a big yawn of indifference.

What hypocrisy to talk about the "sanctity of life" in your opposition to abortion while, at the same time,
doing nothing to fight those policies that have caused so much harm and suffering to poor women and children. .What hypocrisy to demand human rights protections for the pre-born, only to strip those rights away as soon as the baby is born! How can anyone explain this?

Note: I don't believe I could, under any circumstances, choose abortion for myself. Nor could I condemn a woman who did choose abortion.

Does anyone get the tone of 'allowed' violence within this culture… watched alittle of O's response to the violence commited in Witchita.. amazing a man of the same up bringing with all the 'altar calls' as I, can be so 'UN-humiliated' by the circumstances at hand…. AMAZING… for all of you out there who think that 'most' Catholics have anything in common with, O'riley, Hannity, Allito, Roberts and Scalazo… NOT..
most of us, middle class Catholics have a much more 'moderate' view of world affairs… even though we do use the teachings of the church within our own families… only we teach.. social equality, non-violence, and Tolerance………………. it's a spiritual brother 'thing'……

You know what? I'm not making decisions about your life, stay the hell out of mine. You right wing ass-hats need to stay out of my uterus. It's just another means of control with you deciding what my life needs to be like for the next…oh, lifetime. I had three kids—they're all grown. But if I hadn't decided to continue the pregnancy for whatever REASON THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MY REASON, then at least I had the option. You "DECIDING" what women can and can't do with their lives is the most arrogant and misogynistic thing I've ever seen. Why don't you toss dog collars on your women and just call yourselves the owners? The women are no better. It's NOT UP TO THEM to decide. I don't make decisions about your life that will affect the rest of your life and I wouldn't want to. If you don't want an abortion, FINE!! Don't get one. Otherwise, unless you are directly involved with the decision making process, keep the hell out of it. BTW—I DID have one abortion. It was a medical decision after an emergency room doctor had pretty much destroyed the fetus by sticking a needle through it's brain and moving it around. This was before we were aware that I was pregnant. We decided that instead of subjecting a child to the kind of life it would have, if it even survived through the pregnancy, that the best thing to do was to abort the fetus. It was a medical decision that my husband, my doctor and I arrived at after a long discussion. You and your kind would take that decision away from me and put my life at risk. You think that you have the right and arrogance to make decisions on other people's lives. Why don't you talk about the millions of women that died from back alley abortions? What about the people you kill and torture in wars? What about the children that are abused and abandoned? You decide that they have to be born and then you wash your blood soaked hands. Your arrogance is something to behold…

contaception people… contaception… and the 'intelligent' use of it… from both the 'self choice' senario to the forced senario where one who is 'irresponsible' in the sexual laiason realm must be 'proscribed' nuetuerd because of ''acute irresponsiblity'….. we must as a culture come to the finding that children are a gift…. not an accident to be dealt with…… and then we will move into the next phase of 'the greater society'….

The original argument for our congresscritters was "Should the government pay for it?", not "Is this a good thing?" Let's not lose sight of that little part.

Murder is murder no matter who is killed. Even if the who is a fetus. The only true line that can be drawn between being a human being and not being a human being is at conception.Any other line is arbitrary and moves depending on who you talk to. Murder is the killing of a human being by another human being. Therefore, abortion is murder whether you are religious or not.

"The ones fighting for the right of abortion are the people that are already born." Origin unknown

The only area where I might be a little more liberal is for rape where the woman had no choice in the matter. Otherwise abortion is murder and is as wrong as the killing of the abortion doctor.

Well my friends, abortion IS MURDER regarless what the jugheads in washington say. They will get their reward Later on when the die and stand before the Lord God and have to answer for their actions, and so will the people that vited for obamma as they are just as guilty. Our country is going to pieces and out kids will be living in a mess for years to come.

I just think that the cartoon is just sick if in the years coming we have a a religious nutcase and decides to do something against what some conservatives call the anti-Christ Obama and then will say that they did not have anything to do with,

The author of the cartoon as well as the killer and are off their meds, time to take their Seroquel,Lexapro, Risperdal cocktail of pills.

We live in a world where killing and slaughter is a daily occurance but justified by legalisms and moral ambivalence…then we are asked by a few…who are no ascetics by any means…to prohibit abortion for any and all causes. It seems the highest form of hypocrisy and self delusion to me. It also seems odd that the anti-abortionists are so pro-war and pro-symbols of war.

Would like to ask Tiller what abortion feels like, now that he has experienced it???

My argument has always been (to any who would listen), when exactly does the moment of life begin?. The second argument comes from the fact that the supreme court made law instead of interpreting it like they were originally set up to do when they declared abortion legal. Based on what? A womans right to choose? Bovung. I firmly believe that every woman has the right to choose not to get pregnant. Furthermore, if you don't believe that life begins when the sperm shakes hands with the egg, then try sinking a putt without teeing off.
You will find extremists in every argument. It's sad that one of them took himself too seriously and committed the same act that he abhors by killing that "doctor".
Personally, I think the whole thing would disappere in a heartbeat if the question were put on the next federal ballot. I double dog dare you.

You may be right, the message of the cartoon can be interpreted the way you suggest, and it's a redeeming point for Mr. McCoy, but it can be seen in the light I've seen it at first look, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw it like this. It's such an obvious interpretation one has to consider it when publishing a cartoon, especially if you cherish life all that much.

Hey, the object is to sell newspapers and get your name spelled right and often. Anything goes. Fan the flame, incite copycats, simple messages for the simple minded works every time.
Hey Gary… sleep well, you were just doing your job… tomorrow will give you the blood of another corpse to dip your pen in.

Dr. Tillman provided abortions to women in their third trimester. Exclusively, these were cases where the fetus had failed to form a brain and/or other internal organs. The fetus (the correct term in this case, because it was an incomplete baby – not viable, no vital organs) would have died upon birth, or immediately (within minutes) of birth. Should a woman be forced to carry a dead and/or dying fetus to term? I do not believe so. But each woman makes this choice for herself. Less than 1% of abortions are third trimester cases.
Women die during delivery, at an embarrassingly high rate in this country. Should a woman's life be sacrificed to deliver a dead/dying baby? Should a woman's life be sacrificed for the baby's life? Who should make this decision? The woman. Not the man. Not society. Only the woman.

I live in a town where I am subjected to Mike Lester's continual right-wing rants against Obama and everything progressive, so this cartoon does not come as a surprise. The disappointment is that there are so many like these cartoonists. Whether they believe it or not, they and people like Rush incite fear and hatred in millions. And occasionally someone murders another human being. The irony of these people being against abortion while for capital punishment is so obvious, but no one seems to care. Taking a life for another life is a sin, no matter what the reason.

Perhaps one reason the images strike a similar chord is because each side wants what it wants and reason be damned. The arrogance of humans who kill babies while asserting their right to do whatsoever they please with their own bodies is pitted against the arrogance of humans who kill humans who kill babies while asserting their right to do so in the name of humanity. They are forever joined at the lip, their self-indulgent arrogances a tar baby pulling them together in a final, consummate spiral of death. A pox on both their houses, those mausoleums built by Roe and Wade.

mccreep was, is and will ALWAYS be an asshole.
What more could you expect from someone who dreams of performing oral sex on cheney & cheney’s puppet?

It hates women and has the attitude that women are 2nd class in all respects.
A thing like that has deep seated insecurities.

Also, how could mccreep be against abortion?
It’s mother named hers gary.

It is the woman’s legal choice. You people are missing the big picture, it’s any form of contraception or birth control that these people are against. Abstinence my ass, tell that to the teenage boy in the bathroom chocking the chicken, he would prefer the belly of a whore but he will settle for dropping his seed on the toilet seat as an alternative. People are going to do it , accidents will happen. these people on the right want no contraception, no birth control, no morning after pill,no exceptions( that one is especially relevant to all you Christian daughter screwers) for incest , rape or the life of the mother. If they had their way life would begin at dinner and wine.
Abortions are a necessary procedure to some , wether its legal or not , someone will get one . How many born children all over the world die every day that you could care less about. Pro -Life my ass …Hypocrites …get a life and stay out of mine.
The Doctors assasination was an act of terrorism… period… you and Fox News are culpable assistants In an act of terrorism. Want to see the American Taliban … Look in the mirror.

Here is a thought. An egg and a sperm are each 1/2 a foetus. Any young egg bearer who does not at least attempt fertilization is therefore guilty of premeditated murder. Obviously, every egg cell should be given a chance for life. This of course means that every eggy human female must be serviced on a monthly basis. Unfortunately, young human males dailey create many sperms for most of their lives (no menopause for men). Consequently they are bound to copulate daily with fertile females with eggs ready to go. To bring this off, we would need about 4 eggy females for each sperm carrier. Is there something wrong with God's mathematics? Where can we find 4 females for every male? How can a man hold down a full time job while servicing 4 women? Are we all just simply damned the day we are born?

No matter what language one speaks the english definition is GOD. He is the same Gos just different views of his words. Study history which is entertwined with religion and find it is mankind who deivdes on the interpretion of his words. Even the christian religion ( which I am a christian) has devided and fights over the interpretation of his words.

What many people don't seem to be realizing is that there are actually 4 different aspects to the abortion debate…not just 2.
Pro-Abortion — People looking at abortion from this perspective believe that abortion should not only be legal, in some cases it should be encouraged or even forced.
Pro-Choice — People looking at abortion from this perspective think each mother has the right to choose life or death for her own baby before it is born.
Pro-Life — People living from this perspective actually are looking at many more issues than just abortion. The main tenant of "pro-lifers" is that ALL life is valuable and shouldn't be ended for any reason. These people oppose abortion, euthanasia, and the death penalty and support causes that help to prolong and better life for people around the world. True "pro-lifers" would never murder a doctor, even if (s)he performed abortions.
Anti-Abortion — People looking at abortion from this perspective are the extremists who murder abortion doctors…"stop abortion at all costs."
I'm sure you can tell that I am pro-life, but I am saddened by the end of the life of that doctor as well as the ends of the lives of all of the babies he aborted.

All it takes is a provocative cartoon to bring all the left-wing loonies out from under their rocks! When one argues with a liberal, one is arguing with an infant messing his pants–they do not hear the voice of reason and logic. The real cause of liberal thinking is giving up on life but not having the nerve to end it all, and maybe hoping one can cause so much misery to others, it somehow makes up for all one's grief.

The interesting point about this cartoon is that by and large, we do not name or bury those who are aborted, or miscarried, or the vast number of conceptuses who are washed away by natural processes early in pregnancy. Nor do we, mostly, initiate medical rescues, or invest in vast programs of medical research, to reverse "natural" losses early or mid way in pregnancies. Our behaviors simply do not reflect an equivalency between embryos or fetuses and born children. Nor do those who issue inflamatory pro-life rhetoric act as if they believed their own rhetoric.
This very cartoon confounds the artist, not his intended victims.

I'm mostly amazed at how judgmental, angry, self-righteous, and hypocritical many pro-abortionists are, and how some of you can obsess over minor details (e.g., all the graves having crosses, instead of a nice, politically-correct, hodge-podge of other religious, or non-religious symbols), while MISSING THE MAIN POINT of anything to do with what constitutes murder of a human being. Their rhetoric gives me de ja vu of the pro-states-rights/ pro-slavery activists of the pre-Civil War South. Slaves being killed were not considered on the same par with whites. There's no difference between these two issues.

Humanity is defined by genetics, not by religion, race, or age, nor occupation, nor handicap. The Bible (AND the secular laws of most nations, historically) forbids cold-blooded murder, not the killing of violent criminals for just cause that has been tried in court, nor even provoked war (tragic as that may be), nor other forms of self-defense. If that has to be the definition of "pro-life," then you're suggesting pro-lifers must have no sense of justice to ever correct wrongs, and that we should have let Hitler kill the rest of the European Jews and let him take over the US. But taking the law into one's own hands vigilante style has also historically been condemned. So we must condemn the vigilante killers of pro-abortionists, just as we do the killings of pre-born infants.

Being born to someone who doesn't want you or doesn't feel capable of caring for you is not wrong on the part of the baby. Killing that innocent baby is.

Abortion, when there is medically guaranteed no other way to save the life of both mother and child (or inducing early labor, while making every medical effort to save the baby's life, too, if possible) is a form of "self-defense," as in the case of an ectopic pregnancy. (And don't say those moms never grieve to the same extent as those whose older babies die! You haven't met some of those moms — I have, including my sister-in-law.) We certainly grieve more when we have known someone a long time, but that doesn't reduce the value of the lives of total strangers we never knew when they die tragically. That includes Dr. Tiller. That includes every unborn child whose life was tragically cut short by prejudice, pride or ignorance.

There is no other possible, moral excuse for abortion than to save the mother's physical life, as doctors are often proven wrong after a baby is born and it does better than expected. Additionally, for the sake of the well-meaning, but ignorant ones who've said, "What about rape/incest victims?" I've worked with some — I know. Rape victims often report feeling re-raped by an abortion experience, even more so than by giving birth to a child conceived through rape or incest. I know many women who, giving birth after a rape or incest, report that they find the baby was "the only good thing that came out of an otherwise horrific experience." This surprised them. The baby is another victim of the same rape. He or she is NOT the rapist and mustn't be punished as such. This excuse for abortion (which comprises only about 1% of abortions, anyway) is a common fallacy.

I must add, after seeing the previous two comments before mine, that some of my fellow pro-lifers who react in kind with harsh judgmentalism, insults, and sarcasm are just as bad as those they condemn. I have to admit, after hearing that Dr. Tiller had survived numerous threats on his life prior to this final tragedy, that I at least have to hand it to him that he undoubtedly sincerely believed in what he was doing, that he thought he was helping women. May God have mercy on him.

The greater tragedy is I've ended up counseling too many women who struggle to forgive themselves and have difficulty recovering from the trauma of an abortion. So that's one reason I know that well-meaning "pro-choicers" are sadly mistaken and just emotionally swept away by democratic-sounding rhetoric, without thinking all the biological facts through. Rationalization doesn't make a wrong right.

As for the comparison with the death penalty, it's not the same when one executes legal justice vs. taking an innocent life via abortion, or via self-promoted vigilante-ism. But that's where I am "pro-choice," if that concept has a just application. If I were a crime victim, I would personally be inclined to forgive the perpetrator and pray for God to change him — not to let him out on the streets to harm someone else, but as far as asking the judge to let him live. I personally could not ask for the life of another human being, even if he deserved it, since Jesus laid down His life just as much for the criminal as for me. But I also could not impose that standard on someone who doesn't understand about loving one's enemies and praying for forgiveness. Same with war. I don't feel I could be a soldier, but am grateful for those who are willing to lay down their lives for our country to protect us.

But we have to draw the line at killing innocent children who have no right to vote. How many horror stories have we heard the last generation of newborn babies being abandoned in garbage cans and dumpsters? These mothers have been taught the "pro-choice" rhetoric that they have rights which their children lack, so they don't value the child's life. Such a mother could kill that same baby legally the day before, so what's the difference? There is none. Time doesn't make us human. Nor does the first breath of air. Genetics do.

I am pro-choice and I and many women I know have had abortions when we were teenagers. I happened to have very Catholic parents that did not want me to come home with a baby. My father knew I had a pregnancy test and said nothing to me, yay or nay. I am sure he was releived when I did not carry that baby to term in high school. Although I am glad I had the choice not to become a parent at that time, I believe those babies were babies. Just because something is legal does not change the nature of the act. I think abortion is wrong and should be avoided through counseling about birth control and making. This cartoonist is just calling it as it is. All the name calling and rationalizing in the world won't make abortion just another form of birth control. We just have to call it what it is: a cost, benefit analysis, just like allowing kids to not have health insurance, or protecting our borders from mass economic immigration waves, etc. The problem with the pro life movement is that they want to make the fetus a thing, which it is not. The problem with the pro life movement is that they want everyone to be perfect, which they are not. More birth control and a reality based perspective would go a long way toward eliminating this issue.

I just want to add that I vote pro choice. I just think that it is killing a baby with the goal of not bringing a child into the world at the wrong time or to the wrong person. If that is too brutal, so be it. That is the truth. We sacrifice people every day – children and laborers in China for cheap goods. Call it what it is and live with the truth. Don't pretend you are so high and mighty because you label something so you remove yourself from the grim reality of it. That is selfish and is what allows us all to live with so much cruelty and inequity in the world.

Christian extremists, ie. terrorists, are just as evil as Muslim extremists, ie. terrorists. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist regardless of their stripes or their professed faith. I hope the killer and Randall Terry and his ilk are on the FBI watch list.

Daryl-\"Goodman\'s Law\" isn\'t a law, it\'s a way to shut down discussion by turning every mention of Nazi Germany, legitimate and illegitimate, into a cause to pigeonhole the mentioner as being ignorant of the Holocaust or it\'s relationship to current events. Please refrain from using this so-called \"law\" as a way to smear people who make comparisons that you do not agree with, and instead present a logical counter-argument. Thank you.

Isn't it the bible that says "life begins at conception", isn't that where the concept comes from? But why stop there? Isn't the sperm a living thing also? containing half the DNA to create a person? And the egg isn't a dead thing either, so why not start at an earlier point then conception. Actually I know why, because then MEN would also have to make a sacrafice (however small).

Most "pro-lifers" seem to believe life begins at conception and ends at birth. I've never seen a pro-lifer protesting over our dropping bombs on innocents.

An embryo is not a baby, and either is a fetus, when it comes to term, then it's a baby. Try hugging a fetus or kissing an embryo sometime.

I also think it's ironic that the guy that's SO angry about abortions that he had to take someones life had very little to do with his own son. Like many "pro-lifers", the guy clearly had issues. Personally I think many of the men in the movement are misogynistic and it comes down to an issue of controlling women. I know, because I used to be one of those misogynistic men, fortunately, I changed. For the women in the pro-life movement, if you don't want one, don't get one.

It's also odd how the "pro-life" movement has done everything they can to stop the Morning ofter pill from being readily available. This would eliminate abortions, you'd think they'd embrace it. Once again, it comes down to a women's right to choose, if they have sex (evil) then they should be punished. Plus without abortions they'd have to find something else to whine about..maybe gays getting married?.

If men could get pregnant the right to a safe abortion would have been written into the constitution.

I think that the pro-lifers should take care of all the unwanted children born and let them bear the expenses of those children from birth to post-graduate school & UNiversity, and lets see them manage.
Its a matter of mental health and economics, most of these children aborted are due to several reasons: Age of the mother, the financial straits etc etc. The pro-lifers should concern themselves with the education of the peole in sex and STD's which would and could pervent many of these abortions.
Also killing a doctor shame on you! Health physicians are precious even if you do not agree with what they do, you have no right to kill them, this man did what he believed was right, and was trying to prevent misery, a fact which pro-lifers seem to ignore.
And someone mentioned the US's seperation of church and state, unfortunately since the 8 years of republican rule, the lines have blurred if not vanished, how else could these right wing bible thumping twits take control and scare every president since and before! Appease appease appease is the presidential mottos it seems, so where are the real "Men", non- existant I'm afraid.

I'm wondering how "knuckle-dragging" promotes constructive dialog. Or, is belittling one's political opponent the ethical and moral response?

I think his cartoon is appropos. I'd like to see a coment from Daryl explaining how it is not.

I am going to leave the abortion debate going but the one thing I have yet to understand about the law is how abortion of a fetus is legal then someone like Scott Peterson, who killed his wife and unborn child, can be charged with two counts of Homicide. If the fetus is not a living thing how can one murder it?

I take humbrage with your comment about "knuckle dragging conservative". Comments like that do absolutely nothing towards trying to get folks on both sides of an issue to be reasonable and try to come to a central point. Is this how you feel about anyone who happens to disagree with you – that they must be just one step above apes in the evolutionary chain??

It's just cheesy and hateful. It's not as if late term abortions are carried out for convenience, but out of necessity. Good grief. Why are the intelligent people of this nation giving in to backward-thinking, emotional, religiously fueled idiocy? Why is this cartoon getting any play at all? It has no business being in the public discourse at all. If everyone stops commenting on Bill O'Reilly, then O'Reilly won't have a voice, beyond the idots who watch him.

Why don't these nuts that tell us abortion is murder , practice what they preach. the cartoon should have War Kills on the tombstones.After all we give them a CHOICE to go to war or use the conscientious objector clause.

Why don't these nuts that tell us abortion is murder , practice what they preach. the cartoon should have War Kills on the tombstones.After all we give them a CHOICE to go to war or use the conscientious objector clause.

Late-term abortions ARE NOT performed on a whim (most early abortions aren't, either, but try explaining that to people) and in most cases that I have heard about, the fetus is wanted and loved, but will not survive very long or, if he/she survives, will not be able to function. If a woman has a late-term abortion because of medical problems (which, again, is the main if not only reason to have one), it's because she doesn't want the child to suffer through birth only to die an agonizing death outside of the womb.

Explain to me in what way that is cold and calculating.

Also, please, try to refrain from calling opponents "knuckle-draggers"; it does nothing to demonstrate that you're right, and only hurts your credibility.

Freedom of expression also includes the freedom to express disagreement.
The cartoon reflects a holier-than-thou, my-side-knows-all-the-answers, one-size-fits-all mindset.
Supporting the right to choose abortion if no better alternative exists is not the same as supporting wanton, wholesale infanticide on a whim.
I am sick and tired of anti-choice forces, many of whom have never soiled themselves by setting foot in the real world where privilege and only the finest options are often non-existent or at best very rare.
The anti-choice forces need to get off their high horses and immerse themselves in eliminating the historic problems such as poverty, lack of education, absence of regular health care, etc that lie at the core of many of the choices for abortion because, as unappealing as abortion may be, it is the best of the range of even more negative options.
Anti-choice forces need to try harder to understand and less inclined to judge as their preferred behavior in almost all instances.

Melody, I'm not sure if the "Morning After " pill actually prevents fertilization, but rather prevents implantation in the wall of the Uterus. Is there someone out there who knows which it actually is?

If you want ultimate hypocrisy, how about adoptees who are pro-abortion (not the p.c. pro-choice) or those of us who are descended from single mothers? If they had had abortions, we wouldn't be here today to discuss this issue.

The murder of Dr. Tiller was wrong, but it is sad to justify the slaughter of "inconvenient" fetuses simply because the mothers don't want them. The waiting list for adoptions is incredibly long and many families resort to long, complicated and very expensive overseas adoptions if they have been infertile.

Abortion will never be prohibited, as there are always exceptions (for example, a horrendously deformed fetus that will be hooked up to machines for all of its brief life due to major defects, or the occasional case where a comatose or seriously ill mother needs an abortion to save her own life). But the wholesale slaughter, including the third trimester skull smashings and leaving newborn aborted infants who survive the birth process to die is hardly acceptable.

I've also found it strange that the biggest pro-abortion supporters are inevitably anti-death penalty…kill the innocent, save the guilty!

I strongly disagree with this cartoonist's stance. But, I think it's a great 'toon. It makes its point strongly and well.

I think knuckle-dragger is as good a term as any… Whether you see fetus's as "pre-born babies" or clumps of cells, the decision is between a woman and her doctor, and is none of anyone else's business. They cannot reconcile the murder of a doctor by saying "it saves babies"… Bullcrap…

So, an "eye for an eye", eh? The bleeding-heart pro-lifers need to get a reality check. It is OK to murder a physician in cold blood , but not OK to abort an unborn, possibly unwanted fetus? If the pro-lifers truly believe that abortion is taking a life, why then is it acceptable to them for people who believe as they do to take a life? Get a life, people!

Do any of these "pro life" dick heads seriously think that a pregnant women would abort a foetus that she WANTED to cary to term? I don't think so. The only crime worse than murder is to bring into existance an UNWANTED child. There is NO SHOTAGE of people upon this benighted planet, we are a cancer by definition "an organism which demands unlimited growth in a limited host". How many people is enough? 6 billion is already unsustainable, will 60 billion be enough? If you take the "pro life" argument to it's ridiculous extreme then every menstrual cycle in a women is the death of a potential foetus and therefore murder so we should muder all the fertile women to prevent murder, worse than that every ejaculation by a fertile man represents the loss of 200 million + potential foetus's so we should kill all the fertile men too. Everyone is a mass murderer – potentially.

What to do? What to do? Having a child with no father around, no support from family, and the depressing outlook of being on welfare, and worse, choices are but two: Kill, or be killed.
Any woman has the right to end something that will obstruct her life.

Well, on issues like abortion, I suppose I can understand why he drew all these graves.
It is a very passionate issue that fires up both the pro-life and the pro-choice alike.
However, this argument has been solved over 30 years ago. People on both sides need to move on to more important issues, like our atrocious economy, our two wars, and the giant cluster**** that we call healthcare.

-it seems logical to me that the resurrecrtion of the dead under Messiah's 1000 year rule will include aborted babies. I will have room for some in my home

which is more sad? Aborting a baby before its birth, or letting it grow another 18 years outside the womb then sending him or her away to be maimed or killed on the battlefeild in the name of patriotism and country. we are humans before we are americans, russians or from pitcarin island

I think the argument over whether life begins at conception is off-base. Of course the fertilized egg and subsequent blastoma are alive, as is the developing fetus. The real question is whether if, and if so, when, any of these becomes a human being prior to birth. That is an issue of definition, which should be based on some appropriate, useful principle.
My personal view is that until some point in development there is only a potential human being, and that the logical criterion, given that humans have the very significant quality of a brain capable of rational thought, for becoming a realized, rather than potential, human being is when the brain is sufficiently developed to experience sensations, including pain. Obviously other people have different ideas about this. Will there ever be substantial agreement among people to incorporate some such definition into law, so that the crime of murder can be settled in the case of the developing fetus? I don't know.
Just because some people believe that aborting a fetus (at some stage or other) is wrong, according to their moral beliefs or religious beliefs, does not make it murder, until there is enough agreement on the issue of when the fetus becomes a realized human being to declare that it is legally murder after that. I personally think we are unlikely to reach such a consensus any time soon, and until then, I think the compromise reached by the Supreme Court is a pretty good one.
Of course as we learn more about the actual extent of development of the fetal brain, we might reach a point when a new consensus about the potential/realized or fetus/human issue arises.
In the current issue, there is no ambiguity in the law about whether killing the abortion doctor is murder.

This is, unfortunately, just another example of the utter ignorance that too many of our fellow Americans suffer from in their very narrow-minded and extremist views that somehow can condone and rationalize this kind of fanatical and dangerous behavior. It is a doctrinaire mind-set all too prevalent which puts us all at risk and truly threatens our very freedoms. That Mr. McCoy, and those of like-minds, can even suggest that we should have "expected" this; that because of the doctor's own beliefs about those he helped, he was asking for it; and, that no one should be at all surprised by this violent and barbaric action, we should be greatly concerned and alarmed by this disturbing and pervasive mentality. Regardless of your own view of abortion, there simply is no justification for this kind of cold blooded killing. For those like McCoy who can relate to the ugly and disturbed message that this cartoon clearly conveys, you can be sure that the next time you see a news report about another suicide bomber taking lives in the name of god and their own extremists views, you will certainly be looking at yourselves.

So far the men are far outpacing the women on commenting on this alleged cartoon which is par for the course. What is it about you Neanderthals that makes you think you have the right to run our bodies? Can''t stand the thought of women having the dignity of running our own lives, can you? You disgust me, each and every last one of you worthless losers, and yes, I am married, to a non-Neanderthal. Don't want your darling sperm aborted? Keep your pants zipped. Don't support abortion? Don't have one. Until you can be in that place of having to make that terrible decision, you have NO BUSINESS in the discussion. NONE. Go back to your caves, vermin.

Brian Calvert is on the money. We are filling our prisons already with unwanted children that grow up into criminal adults for lack of socialization. Even worse, about the same number grow up to be agressive pro-lifers (similar personalities, it seems).

I just don't understand all the name calling, gender bashing, etc. How does that contribute to the discussion? Brian Calvert, by inserting dickhead into your first sentence you diminish the weight any thoughtful person would give your opinion. Don't do that to yourself. You make such a great point about overpopulation, which despite the contention we could all live in Texas, is a very real threat acknowledged by demographers on both sides of the aisle in terms of sustainability. Just because there is physically room for all of us and the exponential growth we can expect to continue, does not mean that quality of life will be sustained by occupying more and more of the earth. Further, the idea that every forest, desert and bit of swampland should ultimately be made available to habitation by future generations is one that I am sure a good geographer/environmental scientist would refute.

I'm a bit late to the discussion on this one – but I'm not happy with Daryl's comments about pro-life Americans at all! and the same goes for the many unthinking people who seem to have the idea that anyone who doesn't believe in abortion at any stage of pregnancy is a – now, how did Daryl put it? – 'knuckle-dragging conservative pro-lifer'.
To equate the actions of the misguided radical zealot who murdered Tiller with those of the VAST majority of anti-abortion, anti-eugenics, anti-euthanasia Americans isn't much different than to equate the actions of Al-Queda and the Taliban with those of the over a billion Muslims in the world.
Tiller's death was as wrong as the deaths of the thousands of babies he tore from the wombs of women over the years. The man who shot him is NOT a representative of the millions of pro-life Americans who work prayerfully and NON-VIOLENTLY to end the horrible violence that is abortion.
There's a good reason why in America today, a majority of people have begun to truly question the anti-life ethic that the abortion industry has foisted on us since Roe v. Wade was decided.
Perhaps if more Americans saw the reality of the procedures that have taken the lives of over 47 million young Americans since that decision, they'd appreciate a bit more the accuracy of the cartoon that started this discussnion.
And Lori, you should be aware the Tiller was a notorious 'late-term' abortionist. That means that many of the babies he killed were indeed very much 'viable', And living. And human beings. Those aren't alens growing inside those women.
EJA, you've got your facts a bit skewed. Most people want to see many restrictions placed on abortion, including parental notification for abortions performed on minors, limits on when and how abortions are performed, and limits on the kind of abortions Tiller performed. The abortion industry, of course, wuld have us think that the country is on their side, and that abortions should be permitted at ANY stage of pregnancy, and for ANY reason.
IsisTheCat, you need to get a good textbook on embryology (note, folks, that I'm talking about a SCIENTIFIC book, not a religious or 'ideological' one). In fact, get ANY textbook on embryology. They'll all pretty much say the same thing – the fetus, formed by the union of sperm an egg at conception, is a unique, living human being. That's a proven, proveable, fact. Period.It's the people who refuse to accept that scientific, biological fact who are holding to a 'false premise' that the fetus isn't a living being in order to justify killing it.
Now, I'm not equating the abortion holhocaust with the Shoah (the Jewish Holocaust of the 30's and 40's), but the same premise was used to justify their deaths – and those of homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, the handicapped. Because a false premise is used to justify deaths doesn't make those deaths acceptable, That's why we are today appalled by the actions of the Nazis, and the terrorists of all stripes, who take innocent lives for an ideological purpose.
Tiller, though he was in my estimation a killer, did not deserve to be gunned down. Sadly, what he did every day was legal. Not right, but legal. There is NO justification for taking his life. Period.
And the many of you who disagree with me might want to Google Bernard Nathanson, a doctor who was a founder of NARAL, and presided at thousands of abortiions, including ones performed on his own daughters. When he saw his first ultrasound, he began to question his actons and long-held beliefs. When he realized that he had been operating on, in IsisTheCat's words, a 'false premise', he had the integrity not just to stop performing abortions, but to begin to tell the SCIENTIFIC truth about them.
OK, I'm done for now!

Gary McCoy has stated his opinion that outrage at the murder of a person is contingent upon the occupation of the victim.
Has he stated whether it would be an outrage if a political cartoonist is murdered by someone who does not like a cartoon by the victim?

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